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Would you be more likely to ski Nationals if slalom were a type of turn and burn?

LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,386 Crazy Baller
edited August 2015 in Rules/Politics/Issues
The turn and burn would start back at the missed pass. If you're satisfied with your first attempt, take it and stop. If you want to turn and burn no other options would exist except to start back on the missed pass. It could go rather quickly using that format.
Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge

Would you be more likely to ski Nationals if slalom were a type of turn and burn? 45 votes

Yes
44%
HortondislandAlvin_NeffThan_BoganAndreAdamCordBulldogbishop8950jackskiDougIlivetoskievolskimaximusMichaelGoodmanLCZDkLkSkrE_Tbolizousadkh2oskierCaleBurdick 20 votes
No
55%
DaveDscotchipmanChef23RichardDoaneForrestGumpMrJonesDragoh2oskiCraiglpskierNot_The_Pugsantangelogjohnsonjayskiunksskisjstaab3The_MSZmanPAskierBRY 25 votes

Comments

  • MattPMattP Posts: 6,126 Mega Baller
    @LeonL how about the option to start at the pass before the missed pass? To actually improve the previous score you would need to run the missed pass. I would say a lot of people would be topping out at the pass they missed and would not have the chance to improve their previous score.
    Onside135
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,433 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Turn and burn slalom is (sort of) a way for single event slalom skiers to get that 1.5 - 1.8 rides per skier that was discussed in another thread.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Chairman of the Board
    AWSA Southern Region EVP
    Than_Bogan
  • HortonHorton Posts: 29,165 Administrator
    Yes
    So is I miss at 38 I go back at 38? Would need whole new set of rules for that.

     

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  • HortonHorton Posts: 29,165 Administrator
    Yes
    More likely does not = sold and am going

     

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  • bishop8950bishop8950 Posts: 1,177 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    edited August 2015
    Yes
    Like @horton said, it helps but is it enough?

    I was pondering 1 round turn and burn with the top finishers (how many TBD and could depend on the size of the division) going into a 2 boat H2H based on single highest score to crown the division champ. Yes, would take longer and you may have to constrain the number of skiers total, but it would be more fun and I would go. Evetyone skis ~twice and top skiers get a H2H. Make Regionals same format. Havent put any thought into timing/numbers/etc
    HortonThan_Bogan
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,376 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Not enough to be a deal breaker.

    I like turn and burn option it's done at skiwatch. Able to start one pass prior to the miss. So for example we skied 6 rounds over two days down there. Ran my first round normal. Second round one of the days I whiffed my 35. Figured I don't miss that pass twice so went back out at 35, all warmed up, ran 35 and took my 38 shot. Had I missed 38 would have went back to 35.

    Visibility is often tough due to glare at that tourney round 3 anyway, and I'm done earlier in the day free to judge and relax. Jim never turns and burns wants all the passes he can get. It enhances the format of a multi-round tourney and gives people options. For those traveling great distances also nice to finish earlier and get on the road.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • The_MSThe_MS Posts: 5,631 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    No
    Turn and burns suck for the skiers that do not turn and burn. It also sucks for the round 2 judges and drivers.
    Shut up and ski
    Dragoh2oskigjohnson
  • Moskier3evMoskier3ev Posts: 177 Baller
    No
    Do I get to try the W5F again in trick? It is a competition who's the best on that day gets bragging rights for a year. I got reminded in the boat last night I got footed by a W4 jumper. I have to live with that for a year.. Nationals should be a real competition.

    Jeff
    ricski39Bruce_Butterfield
  • RichardDoaneRichardDoane Posts: 4,383 Mega Baller
    No
    T & B usually sucks as your final round score as well, it very rarely improves a skier's score from what I've witnessed
    BallOfSpray Pacific Northwest Vice President of Event Management, aka "Zappy"
    Onside135
  • bishop8950bishop8950 Posts: 1,177 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    Yes
    @richarddoane I bet that is skewed because isn't it typically after the 2nd rd so late in the day and deep into your energy reserves (effective rd 3)? If you did it after the 1st round I bet you would see a higher (how high??) percentage of increased scores. Someone must have qualified data on this?
  • BRYBRY Posts: 585 Crazy Baller
    No
    To the question "Would you be more likely to ski Nationals if slalom were a type of turn and burn?", No, I would be much less likely to ski Nationals as I would most likely be excluded (not qualify) do to the cut in number of skiers necessary to account for the extra time.

    I am for more skiers at Nationals, not fewer skiers who get more skiing.

    Rules for T&B would need to be altered significantly to fit the above proposal.

    Rule 13.03 Turn and Burn Format
    A. DEFINITION: In Class C, unseeded tournaments and at the discretion of the LOC, a skier may elect to begin his FINAL round of a multi-round SLALOM event immediately upon the completion of his current round; i.e. "turn and burn (T&B)."
    1. Can only be offered in unseeded Class C, and F tournaments. Seeded tournaments refer to those that give awards including awards for placement. In does NOT mean the arbitrary groupings - ability and otherwise - that may be used in many slalom tournaments.
    2. Only applies to FINAL round of a multi-round SLALOM event, not to the trick or jump events.
    3. T&B is an OPTION for the skier - must not be mandatory.
    4. Rule 13.01.D does not apply when using this format.
    B. BEFORE THE TOURNAMENT:
    1. Use of the T&B format should be in the tournament announcement, title or comments section. Alternatively, telephone or other electronic communication should be made with the skier prior to the tournament announcing the format.
    2. In planning skier groupings and official's assignments 3 minutes should be added to the time allotment for each skier that the LOC anticipates will use the format.
    C. DURING THE TOURNAMENT:
    1. Skier can either:
    a. Establish intent to T&B at the starting dock OR
    b. Signal boat crew immediately upon completion of a round using an agreed upon signal.
    2. T&B must begin at the drop area near the starting dock where all previous rounds began.
    3. Skier may elect to start at any speed/line length they choose - similar to a normal round.
    C. OTHER CONSIDERATIONS:
    1. Officials and tournament directors should be aware of the planning needed to make this format run smoothly.
    2. There must be excellent communication between tower officials, scorers and boat crew during last two rounds.
    3. LOCs in regions that allow regional records to be set in Class C tournaments must be sure that this format does not clash with those policies.

    BTW, I have skied and like T&B tournaments. They are particularly good for smaller, weekday tournaments that start later in the day yet still get three rounds.
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,376 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @bishop8950 agree seldom has my best score been in round 3 of a traditional 3 rounder. It's a long day in the sun skiing n judging. By round 3 I'm looking for a thermos of coffee. Don't know that turn and burn does anything re: scores. It may make for a VERY long round 2 at a tourney, and a very quick transition for non turn/burn skiers from round 2 to round 3 as they are the only ones left for round 3. Whoa, I'm up again?
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
    skiwoody
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,425 Mega Baller
    Like @MS said, if you aren't doing turn and burn, then the time between your round two and round three is REALLY long, and judges and drivers for round two are working for a very long time. When T&B started being used, it seemed like only a few skiers used it. In recent tournaments that offered it, I bet more than half of skiers used it because they wanted to head home. Makes for a long day for those of us that want to ski a full three rounds.
    Jim Ross
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,647 Mega Baller
    edited August 2015
    Yes
    Just want to point out that a TWO round T&B is rather different from a 3-round. You're only on the water one time, but you have the comfort of getting a second shot.

    That said, I'm not at all sure it's practical, and I think I generally prefer @klindy's idea of having a parallel tournament "in place of" practice.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • ricski39ricski39 Posts: 80 Baller
    No
    I feel like a turn and burn in a one round tournament is just a different way of saying mulligan.
    ForrestGump
  • skierjpskierjp Posts: 835 Crazy Baller
    A Turn N Burn would be ridiculous and take way too much time. Okeeheelee had 605 skiers this year and I can't imagine having any more skiers. That was a very long week. If a 2 or 3 lake site had that many skiers it would be a mess.
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,647 Mega Baller
    Yes
    @ricski39 Shhhh. People get stressed when you point that out :smile:
    Technically, it's not the same thing for two reasons: a) it consumes a round -- the first score counts, b) you have to complete a pass in the second round. You can't get 3 @ -38 and then immediately try it again and get 4 -- that would count as a final score of 4 buoys. You have to run -35 again first to get the 100 buoys.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,433 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited August 2015
    @razorskier1 Where have you been at a turn and burn where you were allowed to T&B after the first round (and before the 3rd round)? The rule is pretty clear that T&B is only available for your FINAL round. So any delay "waiting for your third round" doesnt exist. It is true that skier that do NOT do a T&B they may have a longer than normal wait for their third round.

    Nevermind...I reread your post more carefully and realize I misinterpreted what you said. Apologies.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Chairman of the Board
    AWSA Southern Region EVP
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,975 Infinite Pandas
    We are thinking out of the box here, right? Just make every one train for T&B. Mandatory. Best round is the score. Power turn at the gates to zoom back to the skier. Go to the closest end to restart. Do it quickly and decisively and the event won't take much longer.

    For old guys like me whose bodies can't hold up for too many passes, no penalty for just doing one round. For those wanting world ranking scores, no penalty for just one round (that way we don't need to screw around with world rules).

    As a tricker, I have no problem making slalom more fun. If I'm seriously chasing some world ranking, I don't care if other more casual slalom skiers have a bit different conditions. The fun for many participants can be enhanced while preserving the experience for the most traditional competitors. Don't let old rules get in the way of making things better.

    Eric
    Than_Bogantrishel41Wish
  • ALPJrALPJr Posts: 2,169 Mega Baller
    A little off topic... The skiers in Marborol MA used to have a 4 round novice slalom. Each round was two shots - ski till miss or fall, then right up for next round.
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 2,747 Mega Baller
    No
    I voted "no" only because I enjoy going to Nats as it is, so I wouldn't necessarily be "more likely" to go with a new format. I'll go in either event.

    The idea is worth trying but I think it will add more time than you think, maybe three minutes a skier, longer if a ski comes off.
    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
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