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Lake Owners and College Skiing

FAFA Posts: 66 Baller
edited November 2009 in News & Other Stuff
<p>
Questions for Site Owners/Club Leaders who host tournaments,
</p>
<p>
Do you allow camping onsite for a collge tournament(why or why not)?
</p>
<p>
Do you have college tournaments(why or why not)?
</p>
<p>
Does anyone have extra liability insurance for underage drinking, can it be obtained, and what are your thoughts on this topic in regards to college skiing? (ie. NCWSA needs to do a better job of policing it, there needs to be some rules in place for underage drinking, who cares it adds to the atmosphere.)
</p>
<p>
 
</p>
<p>
Thanks
</p>
<p>
 
</p>
«1

Comments

  • jdarwinjdarwin Posts: 1,381 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    <p>
    FA - I own a lake but no jump so I can't hold collegiate tournaments.  That being said, if I could, I would.  On-site camping is not a big issue.  The underage drinking is but I'm not certain what liability you would incur unless you provided the alcohol.  Each state has different tort laws regarding "host liquor liability" and typically your General LIability policy would cover you in the event of an incident.  The important aspect is to meet with the host team to make certain that YOUR rules are followed and gain a sense of confidence that they will abide/enforce those rules.  If not, don't go there.  Most college teams are comprised of responsible individuals.  Certainly, a few have behavioral issues but for the most part, they are good kids.  I wouldn't let any unfounded reputations deter you from consideration.
    </p>
    Joe Darwin
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,770 Administrator
    <p>
    What is have seen that works is: NO camping and NO alcohol on site. I would not to it any other way.
    </p>
    <p>
    Let the kids tear up a hotel, that is not your problem.
    </p>
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  • FAFA Posts: 66 Baller
    edited November 2009
    <p>
    I come from the midwest specifically Ohio. The midwest would not have as large of a competing field if we used hotels instead of camping. I am not a lake owner, I am just trying to get rules in place for MCWSA so we do not lose sites due to a group of students behavior or lack of judgement. We are just trying to prevent a lawsuit or some sort of tragedy. Any information would be helpful.  Thanks so far.
    </p>
  • RichardDoaneRichardDoane Posts: 4,337 Mega Baller
    The WWU ski team uses a lake in Bellingham, WA called Borderline.  They are very helpful to the owners when it comes time for labor related projects, and the owner's appreciate their help in trade for skiing at the site.  When they hold college tournaments there is camping allowed, but no alcohol consumption.  The college kids have learned to have thier Saturday night party off site in a farmers field a couple miles away.  We go up for the tournaments to help as officials, and it's a good time for all.
    BallOfSpray Pacific Northwest Vice President of Event Management, aka "Zappy"
  • FAFA Posts: 66 Baller
    <p>
     Its funny in all our discussions "no alcohol" was never an option brought up. I just wonder how the skiers will feel about this.
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
  • MattPMattP Posts: 6,093 Mega Baller
    If they want to drink just tell them it has to be off site
  • jdarwinjdarwin Posts: 1,381 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    <p>
    FA - I stated in my previous post:
    </p>
    <p>
    <em>The important aspect is to meet with the host team to make certain that YOUR rules are followed and gain a sense of confidence that they will abide/enforce those rules.</em> 
    </p>
    <p>
    If your rules require no alcohol on site, so be it.  With the new sanction requirements placed upon LOC's from USAWS, I would think the "no alcohol" statute would be even more critical.
    </p>
    Joe Darwin
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,770 Administrator
    <p>
    I assume that most events go fine but I have seen and heard stories about the sites getting trashed by drunk kids.
    </p>
    <p>
    Generally these are not the kids that are there to ski. These are the kids that are there to party.
    </p>
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  • Thomas WayneThomas Wayne Posts: 550 New Baller
    <p>
     
    </p>
    <p>
    "Twas ever thus.
    </p>
    <p>
     I remember tournaments at Crescent Bar, WA in the 70's where the Goodman brothers (et al) partied late into the night and the next day the camping area near the shore was totally trashed with empties.  That was unacceptable behavior, and something that <em>we </em>would never have condoned or participated in.  We were too busy over at Clint and Jamima's tent... um, <em>bathing in an herbal smoke bath </em>(it was an old Indian tradition).
    </p>
    <p>
    Kids will be kids.
    </p>
    <p>
    TW
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,770 Administrator
    Yea I am talking about more damage then cans and bottles on the beach.
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  • jdarwinjdarwin Posts: 1,381 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Thomas - what's ironic is that today's generation "joneses" for product from Columbia - it's just that there's is coffee!
    Joe Darwin
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,975 Infinite Pandas
    <p>
    I have lifelong friends from my association with college skiers. It is totally worth the hassles.
    </p>
    <p>
     San Diego tournaments are either in the bay here or out at Imperial. The tournament party in San Diego is at a private house (poor sap). At Imperial they camp nearby on BLM land - so anything goes until the ranger shows up. I don't have a jump so my lake can't be used any more - but it was remote enough that I was comfortable with a party on site when we did have college tournaments there.
    </p>
    <p>
    Yes, the drunk kid that ran over my pipeline was a pain - but I took everybody's car keys to prevent exactly that (he must have had a spare). I made sure we had responsible designated drivers if something happened. The party was fairly noisy but the neighbors (at the airport 3 miles away) didn't complain. Everybody was 18 so they were responsible for their own actions - including underage drinking. I did not supply any alcohol - but I might have consumed some... At College Nationals this year, some of the judges were the biggest consumers of alcohol. Every activity has its share of issues - college skiing is no different.
    </p>
    <p>
    The tournament party is a highlight of the tournament and college skiing - discouraging it too much could really hurt the interest in collegiate skiing.
    </p>
    <p>
    Eric
    </p>
  • jlittlejlittle Posts: 257 Baller
    Ahhh, Crescent Bar... the good ole days.  C. Knox could get it done on a slalom ski to be sure.  Some stories are ledgend around these parts.  I watched T. Goodman jump mid 140's at that site which was a good poke for the day.  We towed the boat down there, free skied on the main river some, a little tourney action and a little golf.  Oh yeah, and some of that other stuff TW is reefer-ing to.
  • boarditupboarditup Posts: 585 Crazy Baller
    <p>
    I am a home site for a college team.  I was also the site for a conference championships this year.  I will never again allow a college event at my site unless the NCWSA comes up with an enforceable NO ALCOHOL policy.  Although the neighbors are 1/2 mile away, I still had the county sheriff at my door at 2:55 am.  The neighbors also went to the township board meeting and complained.  I am still getting negative feedback two months later.  In Michigan, the property owner is responsible for conduct involving underage drinking on his property - so I could have been cited.  Of course, I was informed about this at 2:55 am.  My rules included:  1.  NO UNDERAGE DRINKING.  2.  All alcohol must be consumed under a Liquor Control Commission permit.  Both were violated.  Friday night was very low key and respectful.  Some drinking, but very well controlled.  Saturday night was a blow-out kegger.  At 4:00 am some were still drinking even after two were cited for Minor in Possession.  Thankfully, I knew the deputy so I was cut some slack, one time.
    </p>
    <p>
     My opinion is that hosting college events is not worth the risk to your reputation as a criminal record is hard to shake.  The potential of a civil suit can ruin you financially.  For me, I will not put myself or my family on the line for anyone's alcohol consumption.  By the way, no insurance policy covers illegal acts.  The AWSA policy will not cover underage drinking or injuries caused by drunken skiing or hangovers.
    </p>
    <p>
     I am still the host site for the college team, but I will not hold any college events until the NCWSA steps up and gets control of its members.  My perspective is the NCWSA is responsible for the culture I experienced by not tackling this life and death issue and turning a blind eye to it.  It is not acceptable to attempt to push the responsibility to the site owner.  The organizer is responsible for setting the limits of acceptable conduct.  Since the organizer is a combination of a group of college students and the NCWSA, you have to have a set of rules.  They have them for the conduct of the on-the-water tournament, now they have to step up and have a code of conduct for the entire tournament time.  At 2:55 am, what was I to do?  Throw them off site while still drunk?  Skiing while drunk?  Skiing while hung over?
    </p>
    <p>
    My site stank of puke, had condoms in the street, and one of the skiers who fell climbed out of the lake in my back yard, unzipped her wetsuit to reveal PLEASE F*** ME! written across her cleavage.  The host team restored the site on Sunday - they were very embarrassed.  For the most part, they are a great group of kids who got in over their heads.  Why?  There is no support from the NCWSA for off-the-water conduct.  No rules, no enforcement.
    </p>
    <p>
    I was asked to host another conference championship and turned it down.  Even if the camping is off-site, I still would have a reputation damage issue because they are there for the skiing.  This is sad because I have one of the very few multiple lake sites in the region.  It is time for the NCWSA to act before college skiing evaporates due to the lack of sites.
    </p>
    <p>
    End of rant.  However, you asked. 
    </p>
    Karl DeLooff - Powered by the wind
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,975 Infinite Pandas
    <p>
    Boarditup, I'm really sorry to hear about your problems with the college kids. I'm even sorrier to hear your reaction.
    </p>
    <p>
    We live in a crowded world with plenty of rules. Rules which are written to keep the lowest common denominator safe (or the touchy neighbor asleep). College kids are learning limits. Hopefully they push those limits in things like engineering, biology, computers, etc so that progress can be made. Sometimes they will push limits in ways we don't like. We, as their college coaches, site providers and mentors, have a duty to educate them on the proper way to deal with limits. "My site stank of puke, had condoms in the street" was really encouraging - the barfing drunk kids have learned safe sex - maybe the best lesson they can learn from college. "I will never again allow a college event at my site" does nothing to help the kids.
    </p>
    <p>
    Alcohol is the great modern scapegoat. Most people can drink without becoming a raving idiot. Even underage kids. Note that 18 was the legal drinking age when I was in college. I turned out OK (although some might disagree, the alcohol is not a factor). Usually the jerks are jerks drunk or sober. Anytime you have 100 plus people together there will be some bad behavior - regardless of the alcohol. NCWSA already has a reasonable alcohol policy. Other concerned people (Karl?) need to set AND enforce any additional alcohol policies. Don't pass off that responsibility - especially to the cops!
    </p>
    <p>
    The idiot who broke my pipeline did some real damage to me. But I fixed it and next tournament we made sure that we had ALL the keys. Since then the same pipeline has broken several times from "natural" causes. Why is it so different when some jerk drunkenly does the damage vs something that just happens? Repair the damage (or neighbor relations) and get on with life.
    </p>
    <p>
    I am trying to develop and sell one of my lake sites. Chances are that one of the kids who got drunk (underage?) there will end up as a buyer. Several of the kids have worked for me - and their work for me has been extremely valueable. Plus the lifelong friends I've made. There are risks with hosting college tournaments but there are real benefits too.
    </p>
    <p>
    College skiing is one of the bright spots in waterskiing. The future of the sport is coming out of the college ranks. We should be encouraging that as much as possible. Don't take all the enthusiasm out of the tournaments with restrictive and redundant NCWSA rules.
    </p>
    <p>
    Eric
    </p>
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,770 Administrator
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">The problem is multifaceted. In truth we need college skiing. The health of the sport depends on a lot of things and college skiing provides one of our sources of new blood. </font>
    </p>
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000"> </font><font color="#000000"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12pt">When I was at NLU (now known as </span><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12pt">ULM</span><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12pt">) we never went to a tournament without a faculty member supervising us. To me the key is that the kids must not see a ski weekend was a “no hold barred” hedonistic party. With an adult adviser acting as a governor the problem is not 100% solved but is greatly reduced. <span> </span></span></font>
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  • boarditupboarditup Posts: 585 Crazy Baller
    <p>
    If it were about skiing, I have no problems.  However, my rules were violated and the cops were called out by the neighbors, not me.  My rules were a simple restatment of the township, county, and state laws.  Responsible adults should not have a problem following the law - even if they are college students pushing the limits.  Under the law in Michigan, I am responsible and can suffer the consequences of their poor behavior.  My reaction, although regrettable, is not incomprehensible.  It is, however, very sad.  All they had to do is follow the laws.
    </p>
    <p>
    The NCWSA has allowed a culture of exceeding the limits of the law.  That must change for college waterskiing to survive.  We must have younger skiers filling the ranks but not at the expense of my liberty or property.  For me, it is not worth the risk.
    </p>
    <p>
    Here are some questions about the used condoms in the street:   Who is supposed to clean it up?  Do I really want to explain what it is to my 9-year old after the dog takes it home?
    </p>
    <p>
    While I still support college skiing and will continue to be a home site for practice, I am turning my attention to high school skiing.  I think we need to start earlier.
    </p>
    <p>
    Finally, if you are selling homesites, do your prospects really want a college kegger party as neighbors?  Will that atmosphere assist in sales?
    </p>
    Karl DeLooff - Powered by the wind
  • <p>
    It is funny to hear stories of the "old days" at Crescent Bar.  I was a kid and went to all the tournaments there.  I was too young to participate in the after hours party, but remember the larg turn outs and all the good skiing.  There is still alot of good skiing at CB, but no tournaments, maybe some day soon.
    </p>
  • lottawattalottawatta Posts: 124 Baller
    <p>
    Karl,
    </p>
    <p>
    Where was the conference leadership when all of this was going on.  I held the GLCC in 2008, and when there was an issue, I got the conference chairman out of bed and he took care of it to my satisfaction immediately.  Where was the host team leadership?  If they knew your rules ahead of time and didn't enforce them, they are partially to blame.  Sounds like you went to bed while the party was still going on, big no-no.  Regardless of the host teams' supposed embarassment, they knew exactly what goes on at the midwest collegiate tournaments.  It wasn't their first rodeo, sounds like they didn't prepare you for what goes on.  Karl, I sympathize with you.
    </p>
    <p>
    To all:
    </p>
    <p>
    I previously had a very long and detailed post on this subject, however my window must have timed out and I lost it.  I will try to condense my response a bit.
    </p>
    <p>
    In the midwest, the skiing has become secondary and the party is now primary.  The University of Cincinnati hosted a tournament at my site this year.  It went very very well.  UC scoured the site for every bit of trash, they were helpful and respectful when setting up and tearing down before and after the event.  However, I remain very uneasy about the out of control party.  It seems that the party goes later and later and each school is trying to out do the previous school in party length and intensity.  Unfortunately, I will no longer allow onsite camping at my lake.  I simply can not afford to lose it all to some freshman's parents who choked on their own vomit in a tent at 4am with a bottle of maddog duct taped to their hand.  This year, I really tried to discourage the partying by turning music off at 1am, lights off at 2am, they were still raging strong at 3am, and even 4am.  I finally forced everyone to stop at 4:15.  There were still 30+ who continued the party after that. The party was primary for these people, the skiing secondary.
    </p>
    <p>
    For the past couple of years I have asked that only registered skiers camp on site.  I even put in the regional guide and all my communications to the host team that only skiers were welcome onsite.  I have been hosting colliegate events since 1990.  More than half of all incidents are caused by non-skiing team members, friends, housemates, boyfriends, girlfriends, fraternity brothers, roommates, and alumni who only come for the party.  This year, again, saturday night, people started rolling in from the local schools and alumni.  Just to party saturday night.  The party is primary, the skiing secondary.
    </p>
    <p>
    In years past, the host team has spent more time worrying about what they were going to do for the party theme, make sure there is plenty of alcohol arranged, design t-shirts, etc than they have helping set up the site or clean up.  The party is primary, the skiing secondary.
    </p>
    <p>
    I watch more and more skiers come every year to fall around one ball (or fail to get up on a ski).  They drive a long distance to camp in the cold, brave the frigid waters, pay an entry fee, etc.  They come for the party, not for the skiing.  Each year there are fewer and fewer serious skiers.  Each year the skiers expect more and more.  Each year the skiers are less and less appreciative.  These skiers get up early, can't find their equipment, end up borrowing equipment, come to the dock, get in the cold water, get up on the third try, fall going through the gates and swim in, while their entire team is still asleep.  When I was in school, I partied as hard as anyone.  My team partied as hard as anyone.  However, I was always up before the tournament began boat judging, dock starting, announcing, scoring, rope handling and our entire team was up and out of their tents when anyone on our team skied.  For us, skiing was primary, the party secondary.
    </p>
    <p>
    The powers that be know what goes on.  Things will not change until there is an unfortunate accident.  The accident will be alcohol related.  It won't happen at my place.  Not anymore.  The powers that be don't want things to change.  The sheer numbers of skiers who come just for the party accounts for more than 50% of the skiers.  Their entries, team fees, etc support the organization.  Keep these people away and you lose half your income and half your numbers.
    </p>
    <p>
    Suggestions:
    </p>
    <p>
    1.) Find an insurere to write event insurance for all onsite activities for the weekend (Good luck with this)
    </p>
    <p>
    2.) The party and camping is for registered entrants only.  Give each skier a wristband when they register so we know who's who.
    </p>
    <p>
    3.) Music off at midnight, final curfew at 2am. (not unreasonable)
    </p>
    <p>
    4.) Each team posts a bond.  Any member of that team causes an incident, the bond is forfeited.
    </p>
    <p>
    5.) Any incident of theft, destruction, or behavior that gives waterskiing a black eye, the tournament is over and scores are null and void.
    </p>
    <p>
    6.) Any host team that doesn't live up to their end of the bargain with the lake owner is barred from conference, regional, or national cometition.
    </p>
    <p>
    7.) Limits on the amount of alcohol brought onsite (good luck on this one)
    </p>
    <p>
    8.)Security of some sort (sober host club members, lake owners, private security, rent as cops) at the rate of 1 per 50.
    </p>
    <p>
    9.)No driving after dark. No one leaving period.
    </p>
    <p>
    10.) Make skiing primary, the party secondary.
    </p>
  • lottawattalottawatta Posts: 124 Baller
    <p>
    One clarification:  When I say this year's party was out of control I don't mean to say that it was a wild free for all that couldn't be controlled.  What I mean is that the skiers were individually unable to control themselves and many drank themselves into oblivion.  Individually, many were well beyond what anyone would consider responsible partying.  When you are too drunk to know where or who you are, when you have to be carried to a tent, when you pass out half in and half out of the water after puking, when you can't remember where your tent is, etc. Collectively, they behaved themselves much better than years past.  Thankfully, no arrests this year, no cop visits this year (breaking the long running annual tradition), no theft this year (my slalom ski was safely tucked inside the locked boat house), no destruction this year.  Again, U.C. did a great job.
    </p>
    <p>
    It is my own worries over liability and what I percieve as a trend away from skiing, towards partying that are keeping me from allowing any more colliegate events. 
    </p>
  • boarditupboarditup Posts: 585 Crazy Baller
    <p>
    Lottawatta:
    </p>
    <p>
     All good stuff.  I agree with your sentiment and where you are going with this.
    </p>
    <p>
    I did go to bed.  I thought I had an agreement regarding the party - 11:00 pm for the music turned off, etc.  I was way to trusting, but this was my first college big event.  I did not understand the culture.  I had heard a lot, but no direct experience.  Now, I have a great education.
    </p>
    <p>
    It is a fools errand to expect the college students to police themselves.  Nobody wants to be the cop.  That belongs to the adults..
    </p>
    Karl DeLooff - Powered by the wind
  • jdarwinjdarwin Posts: 1,381 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Wow - I guess it's a little tamer in the South Central.  ULM and ULL have their fun but it's serious business on the water.  The other schools are mostly from Texas and are made up of pretty competitive skiers who take it seriously as well.  They have a good time but it is never out of control.  
    Joe Darwin
  • Old MS AccoutOld MS Accout Posts: 2,114 Baller
    <p>
    I first met the Dawg, Horton, JD, Greenwood, Elee, Fitz and a few other clowns while drinking a few barleys after a hard day of skiing.
    </p>
    <p>
    The stories I heard about some of the College tourneys were awesome. Cant repete any of it here without getting them in trouble.   
    </p>
    <p>
    Now all of you guys wont let the next generation of skiers party and have fun. Your all old and dont want guys like Horton dating your daughter and hitting a 160 foot jump on the same night.
    </p>
    <p>
    Times have changed. MADD and the likes have put the crimps on having fun as teenagers. The times they are a changen.           
    </p>
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,770 Administrator
    We made as much trouble as we could but we had adults keeping us from going over the edge. Seems like the adults are missing these days.
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  • ForrestGumpForrestGump Posts: 6,097
    When I started driving for the Texas A&M team this year, the fact that there was no adult supervision was conspicuous. Don't get me wrong.....those kids were really organized and they all seemed like good kids.  But you send a group of 20 18-22 year olds together to another town/another state without supervision for more than about an hour and they're gonna be pushing the limits. 
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • boarditupboarditup Posts: 585 Crazy Baller
    <p>
    9-years old, 4-th grade, is a bit too young for that discussion.  Maybe in a year or two.  You have to be age appropriate.
    </p>
    <p>
    The argument seems to be:  kill the underage drinking (or drunken behavior or legal age) and you kill the sport.  If that is the option and I have the only lake left in the US - the sport is dead.  I do not have the risk tolerance.  If the ski teams can act as responsible adults, sure, no problem.  However, the current culture around here is party oriented, not skiing oriented.  I host skiing events.  I do not host parties with alcohol for anyone, even myself.
    </p>
    Karl DeLooff - Powered by the wind
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,770 Administrator
    edited November 2009
    <p>
    In the long run we need College skiing for the good of the sport. Add supervision and we have a good thing. i think that someone who has something to lose (like a house) needs to be in charge of each team. If we stop the “free for all” I think we have a good thing. We do not need to stop the fun we just have to put up some fences.
    </p>
    <p>


    I would guess that by now this thread has been seen by HQ and NCWSA. If any of you want to say anything else on the subject now is the time and Jeff S. if you want to chime in this is the time.
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
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  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,975 Infinite Pandas
    <p>
    I guess if you aren't terrified of alcohol, support the fun in skiing and believe kids need to learn about life before they get let loose, your posts get removed. Censorship of contrary opinions sucks and Jeff there is some support of the current NCWSA rules.
    </p>
    <p>
     Karl, it is NEVER too early to talk to your kids. Lecture early and often. Hopefully your kids will have learned enough to be the ones keeping the party in control instead of spiraling it into depravity.
    </p>
    <p>
    Europe allows youth drinking when supervised by parents. Maybe we need to copy the Belarus model - at least to develop trickers.
    </p>
    <p>
    Alcohol is a nutrient in tiny doses, a medicine in small doses, a drug in moderate doses and a poison in large doses.
    </p>
    <p>
    Eric
    </p>
    <p>
    I may be clueless but I do have an opinion.
    </p>
  • RichardDoaneRichardDoane Posts: 4,337 Mega Baller
    I don't think you're clueless Eric, you make allot of good points. Lake owners need to be aware of what's happening at their sites, and take the necessary steps to keep things under control. The emphasis on the "party" instead of the skiing needs to be corrected. The College tournaments are good fun, and just need more supervision.
    BallOfSpray Pacific Northwest Vice President of Event Management, aka "Zappy"
  • DirtDirt Posts: 1,618 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    <p>
    I believe all of the posts are valid. I can see each person's point of view and I respect them. I have been a drunken collegiate skier puking on the side of the ski site and I have been a lake owner, very uneasy about having collegiate ski tournaments at our site. I agree with Horton about the supervision being important, even if it was Dr. Harsch.
    </p>
    <p>
    I see Eric's point of view about having some room to grow up. Some of the best memories of my life were those college tournaments. I remember the pain of telling the adult (Fritz) that I didn't need to worry about the curfew and paying the price a short time later when he had me up to jump at 7:00am in the fog. The crashes that followed had a lasting impact on my life. I had a new found respect for listening to my elders.
    </p>
    I learned everything I know not to do from Horton
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