15off Help/Questions

lcgordonlcgordon Posts: 282 Baller
I have been skiing with the same form for a bit now and I try every time I go out to change it. I do alot of things wrong hips back, grab handle too fast, get bent over, wheelie, I dont have time to type everything. Just wondering what would you guys recommend me trying? Its tough because I kind of feel like I cant just do one thing right I need to do them all right to make it work and not fall. For example if I pulled harder in the form I am in I will go out the front.

Also, I am a believer that its me and not my ski but it does make me wonder what if my ski is out of wack. I was the one who set it up. I am not one to think I need to adjust stuff but what if I am skiing on something that I set up horribly and I am compensating for it.

I tried to attach some videos. I know it is slo mo and bad quality but you can kinda see.



  • lcgordonlcgordon Posts: 282 Baller

    this one did not show up
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,998 Mega Baller
    Everything sits upon the initial foundation you build in your pull out. Start there. It will make everything else easier, better, clearer.

    Pull out - two things: 1) Get/stay wider, 2) Stand taller.

    You want to be wider and up alongside the boat more when your are ready to initiate your turn. If you get wider too soon, you will start to drift back. Work on adjusting your pull out effort and timing with the goal of starting your turn right at the moment your ski would start to slow and drift back so that you are turning before that happens. You will feel later, but you should still make the gates and arrive earlier to 1 ball.

    Look at any favorite pro skier when they are gliding. They are tall, tall, tall. Their weight is mostly over their front foot and they are tall. Every moment you are "resting" on the ski you should be tall and above your front foot. Make this your new "normal" position. Once this feels more normal, work to keep this feeling through the turn in and lean. Also work to restore it during the preturn.

    I'd just keep those two in mind for now. A good start will build confidence and consistency and take you where you want to go.
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • lcgordonlcgordon Posts: 282 Baller
    Thanks I will remember that. And start with working on that. I feel like that I have a problem with bending my knees in that I dont do it. So I try to ride around with my knees bent a bit. Is that what I dont want to do? By standing tall are you meaning no knee bend everything in align and stand up as straight as I can? I feel like I hear people saying hips forward, shoulders back and knees slightly bent. If one was to do that I would not considered that tall. Or is the tall stance just in the pull out and then you switch. I get so confused on all of this stuff so sorry for the what may seem like stupid questions. I try to do my reading and watching coaches on you tube but alot of times I just get confused.
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,998 Mega Baller
    Start tall before the pull out. Stay tall through the lean outward. Stay/regain tall during the glide.

    Getting Stacked tall...
    See this thread which refers to the original post in this thread about halfway down.

    The knees will bend when the ankles bend. So, if you need to "soften" your stance, just think ankles, not knees.
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • JordanJordan Posts: 1,291 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Tall= hips forward/handle at hips, knees nearly straight, chest proud.
  • lcgordonlcgordon Posts: 282 Baller
    I read through the post with the stick figure and thats what I thought. I just cant replicate it. Yet. Ill work on that getting the ski to turn is tough it seems like. I guess I need to turn in easier because the boat stands me up before the first wake. Or I guess I would say im allowing the boat to stand me up because of the things im doing wrong.
  • Deep11Deep11 Posts: 247 Solid Baller
    Another way of looking at the "stay tall" idea is that if you look at your video whenever any load is experienced (pull out or through the wakes ) you collapse (shoulders forward / butt back ). To do what has been suggested you need to disconnect the upper and lower body. Meaning : when ANY load comes, your spine stays straight, your butt stays in and all the "flex" comes from knees and ankles (at this point what you do with arms doesn't matter ) To be clear when you watch your video the very first chnage to see is that your spine is tall (shoulders above hips) and at all load points (incl wakes) your spine doesn't look any different than if skiing behind the boat. Now at 15off that probably means the ski kicks through the wakes or you miss the bouys - don't worry - the absolute starting point is a strong skiing position and the starting point for that is your upper body being strong.
    Once you can see that being fixed and its automatic = next step :)
  • lcgordonlcgordon Posts: 282 Baller
    I will be excited to try some stuff. I kinda feel like I have heard the same thing over the past year and I try really hard and I look the same in the video. Slalom is tough because you cant have somebody standing next to you telling you what to do you just gotta figure it out on your own and ask ppl in the boat.
  • gregygregy Posts: 2,590 Mega Baller
    edited April 2016
    @lcgordon what ski are you on? I'm thinking at your level set it at factory and work on form. Adjusting a ski to bad form not going to help in the long run.

    Your problems definitely start before your enter the course as noted above. I'm a fellow LFF and specifically sought out Chris Parrish and Seth Stisher for coaching because they were LFF. Check this thread about halfway down the 1st page. initiating the turn
  • JordanJordan Posts: 1,291 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    If you bend your ankles, you will also bendyour knees, but more importantly, you wuill move your center of mass more forward over the ski.

    If you look at your turn in for the gates, you are on the tail of the ski. This is costing you speed.
  • skihardskihard Posts: 565 Crazy Baller
    Spend some money on a good coach. You'll be amazed at how fast you actually improve. It's not big money and well worth the investment!!!
    Life's about working hard and then having fun on the water!
    I am - are you?
  • lcgordonlcgordon Posts: 282 Baller
    @gregy I am on a radar annex. Im sure the fin is factory but the binding placement is not. I have a radar ski with radar holes and connelly bindings and plates. Is there some what I can measure the ski and know relative to where say my heel is where the bindings should be mounted to be say neutral?

    I read alot of the link. It was something good to do while gluing drysuit seals. From what it seems If I am standing in a perfect position or pretty good position and I point my belly button to 1 o'clock and count one second then glide then to turn in point my belly button to 11 o'clock I will be set up pretty decent to 1 ball. Ill be screwed for the other 5 haha. Just wondering since when you go to pull out what do you do with your body to technically stand back up or quit pulling. I know how I would do it but how are you supposed to? Are you supposed to turn your hips back to 12?

    @gregbanish I dont do that as often as I should but when I do I assume a comfortable position and it is a pretty good one. Then I try to do the position in which I ski and it is so uncomfortable and Im just like why do I ski like that it is harder for me to even do than a good stacked position.

    @skihard I would really like to Im not really sure where I can go tho. I live in denver co which is pretty far from places that I have heard of that coach. Im sure there is people here that do it I just need to find them. I would really like to try the video coaching with Chris Parrish. Does anybody have experience with him over video?
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,998 Mega Baller
    To find a possible coach -
    Go to usawaterski.org's national ranking list page
    Select Colorado (which is near the bottom of the list) for Region or State filter.
    Select a Division (M/W3-M/W5 = 35-59)
    Look at any skier Level 7 - 9.
    Maybe one of those folks is near you and willing to coach. Click on the name to see the city where they live. If you find someone, you can Google them to try to get a contact number or email.
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,998 Mega Baller
    Regarding binding placement... This is the first thing that one should setup when setting up a new ski. Basic method: take off the rear boot, measure from the back of the binding heal to the fin end of the ski. Compare this to published manufacturer's default setting. Note: default may not be the middle hole, heck it may be the first or last hole. You may even need to consider drilling new holes into the binding plate in extreme mix/match cases. Once you have your binding in the default setting, go ski it for a while.

    Often people will move their bindings as a crutch to poor stance or balance on the ski. A skier who's stance is too far back, might overly move the binding forward to compensate. This crutch can create a barrier to learning proper stance. When this skier attempts to learn to stand correctly on the ski, their center of mass will likely be too far forward due to the combination of correct stance and too forward binding. They will likely have OTF falls or feel uncomfortably at risk of falling. Thus, they will abandon learning the proper stance. The scenario can work in the reverse with a skier who is too far forward with shoulders and has the binding too far back to compensate.

    Thus, if you find that your binding is significantly away from default, please consider the above scenarios and how your balance and stance along with the current binding placement may all be working as a system. By understanding this, you will be prepared to know how to adjust your stance based upon your binding movement. Hopefully, both will move toward a more balanced and stacked position.
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • lcgordonlcgordon Posts: 282 Baller
    Thanks for the info I will try that
  • lcgordonlcgordon Posts: 282 Baller
    Just looked it up my buddy I ski with Is Level 7 M1 skier.
  • lcgordonlcgordon Posts: 282 Baller
    @ToddL Thanks for that I will do that I would guess I have mine a little too far forward.
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 7,043 Mega Baller
    I just did a little experiment where I read all the comments first and then watched the video.

    Firstly, I was expecting you to be a LOT worse. The comments had me thinking you were wildly out of position. Actually, much of what you're doing is pretty good.

    That said, you won't be able to progress much more with that kind of bend at the hips. That jack-knife position forces the tail very deep and makes the ski inefficient. And yes -- if you pull harder like that you are going OTF, because the ski can pivot very suddenly from tail to tip-down. (One thing many don't consider is that riding the tail of the ski creates tremendous OTF opportunities because torque is what leads to rotation and to OTF. If centered and balanced and using the entire ski, there is no torque acting in that direction.)

    From your knees to your shoulders, you want to be as straight as possible. The only way to get there is to practice it ALL the time. And I mean outside the course and at work and while standing in line at Dunkin Donuts. Figure out how to bend your ankles to move forward a little while keeping dead straight from your knees up. Since you've likely never been there before, this may feel like awkwardly driving your hips forward. Keep doing it until you can't do it wrong.

    Finally, never do that little wake jump again :). Obviously, I am kidding. But the nature of setting up for that is exactly what you don't want to do: lowering your center of mass by bending forward from the waist. So at least be conscious that if you ever feel remotely like that in the course, you've lost your body position.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    ToddLPatMGreg Banish
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,998 Mega Baller
    Yeah. What he said! ( @Than_Bogan )

    To emphasize - always stand on your ski in the best position possible. When you first get up and when you exit the gates, get into perfect position. While you are riding to set down, or around the turn around at the end of the lake, always be in perfect position. The more time you spend in perfect position, the more likely your body will adopt it while you are focused on something else (like rounding buoys).
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • lcgordonlcgordon Posts: 282 Baller
    @Than_Bogan Thanks for the info and tips. I will work on it. When Im riding around I try to be in good position. I forget sometimes I need to be better at remembering. Haha about jumping. I know its bad form but I gotta keep it fun or I will just get mad all the time. Last time I skied I was not skiing well so I took a trick set and got my first reverse back so that made me happy. I will do more dry land and really focus on my form.
  • lcgordonlcgordon Posts: 282 Baller
    I tried standing taller this weekend a bit. We did not have very good water so I did not ski much. It felt pretty weird. I think I lost my form through the wakes and if I did not I for sure lost it around 1 ball. Its going to take some open water skiing. Should start here in a couple weeks before work. Waiting on it to get lighter a bit earlier.
  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 6,066 Mega Baller
    There is some good stuff here. I don't think right now that your ski setup is the issue although I would recommend checking it to make sure it isn't way off. I would focus on what @Than_Bogan had to say and improve your stack/position on the ski and improve your effort in the work zone through the wakes. That frees everything else up and will make your activities around the buoys that much easier.
    Mark Shaffer
  • lcgordonlcgordon Posts: 282 Baller
    Yeah I know its not the ski its me. I was just wondering if the ski may be really far off. I will keep working on my form. I do need to measure the front boot. I am having a little trouble figuring out where to measure to on the fin block? Do you think it would be the very front?
  • gregygregy Posts: 2,590 Mega Baller
    For the front binding you measure from the back of the boot to the very back edge of the ski.
  • lcgordonlcgordon Posts: 282 Baller
    ok thanks I was confused then thanks
  • swardcoswardco Posts: 64 Baller
    @lcgordon , I won't presume to give any advice, but did you know that Chris Parrish will be in Colorado doing a seminar on June 11th? http://www.cp3ski.com/?product=2016-colorado-clinic
  • lcgordonlcgordon Posts: 282 Baller
    I did but I did not know if I could make it at the time of sign up. Im guessing its full by now.
  • chris55chris55 Posts: 420 Crazy Baller
    You never know, don't assume it is full, call or send a email, coaching with CP is so worth it......you will be so happy you did....!!!!
  • lcgordonlcgordon Posts: 282 Baller
    I was thinking about doing his video coaching instead. Its half the price. So I could send him something and work on what he tells me get better and then send him something again when im at a different stage of learning. I would feel like his video coaching should be basically just as good. Then I can also do it on my own time. Really tho until you can get stacked your pretty much a lost cause on everything else that somebody could teach you because nothing matters if your in a crappy position from the start. I may be wrong on that but im guessing thats pretty much right.
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