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Liability Insurance costs on private ski lakes??????????

I am one of the owners (10 owners in all) of a private ski lake (No Wake Lake) in the Chattanooga Tenn. area.
The Lake is for 3 event skiing (we have a jump) and is built in a flood plain.
No homes can be built on the property.

I have noticed our lake liability insurance has gone up considerably over the last few years.
It is now around $5300 for liability insurance for our lake.
Questions:
I was curious what others were paying around the country private ski lake liability insurance?
What insurance company’s would you recommend for private ski lake liability insurance?

Thanks
oldmanskier
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Comments

  • oldmanskieroldmanskier Posts: 148 Baller
    Revised wording on questions asked:
    Questions:
    I was curious what others were paying around the country for private ski lake liability insurance?
    What insurance company’s would you recommend for private ski lake liability insurance?
  • The_MSThe_MS Posts: 5,466 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    I would like to hear some stories about lawsuits and how they fared with any of these companies. What type of accidents or misdoings do these policies cover?
    Shut up and ski
  • MISkierMISkier Posts: 2,699 Mega Baller
    I have seen it as low as $750.
    The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears.
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 2,652 Mega Baller
    SPORTSINSURANCE.com Call Wayne Feinberg at (518) 891-2020 for a quote. You will be stunned at how much you will save. #iskiconnelly
    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
    MISkier
  • The_MSThe_MS Posts: 5,466 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    @oldmanskier What type of liability protection are you looking for?
    Shut up and ski
  • blockblock Posts: 172 Baller
    Call Jeni at Paramount Insurance Co.,(423-337-5092). She would love to work with you or anyone else needing specialized insurance products. I think she can save you some money.
    John Seiler
  • oldmanskieroldmanskier Posts: 148 Baller
    Thanks for the comments. I am gathering information now for the insurance we have now and what it covers. Once I have this I will contact the suggested insurance representatives for a quote.
    oldmanskier
    StephenFawcett
  • EricKelleyEricKelley Posts: 289 Crazy Baller
    Sportsinsurance about 2500/yr. Required waiver. Seems to be pretty good. One Lake with jump.
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,349 Crazy Baller
    @oldmanskier I have to ask, why do you need liability insurance? Do you have others who ski there besides the ten owners? (Not considering tournaments) If so, do you charge them a fee? If you charge a fee for others, then you need it. If you don't charge you're protected by a Federal Act, I'll get the exact name and edit this later.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
  • oldmanskieroldmanskier Posts: 148 Baller
    Leonl thanks for the information. We (the owners) lease the lake to a ski club. We do charge membership fee's to be in the ski club.
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,349 Crazy Baller
    edited May 2016
    I can't find the Federal Act right now. You may want look at TN Statue 70-7-101 and 11-10-101 anyway. My suggestion is that the ten owners form an LLC and use that as the leasing agency. None of the owners should be members or officers in the ski club. Distance yourself from the potential liability as much as is reasonable and forget insurance.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
  • oldmanskieroldmanskier Posts: 148 Baller
    MS: Our current policy with Global Marine for a premium of 5,237.00 consists of:

    I. LIMIT OF LIABILITY:
    A. Limit each Occurrence including Supplementary Payments: $1,000,000 , Combined Single Limit
    B. Products Hazard or Completed Operations Hazard or with respect to liability arising out of independent
    contractors Aggregate Limit: $1,000,000
    C. Personal Injury and Advertising Injury Aggregate Limit: $1,000,000
    D. Fire Damage Liability Limit: $50,000 ANY ONE FIRE
    E. Premises Medical Payments Limit: Excluded ANY ONE PERSON
    F. General Aggregate Limit (Other Than Products-Completed Operations) $2,000,000 Combined Single Limit.
    COMBINED SINGLE LIMIT: It is understood and agreed that in the event of an occurrence involving more than
    one policy form, section, or endorsement, the maximum limit of liability under this Policy for any one occurrence shall
    not exceed $1,000,000.
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 2,652 Mega Baller
    @LeonL I disagree with you here. Although forming an LLC is a good idea, it is not a substitute for liability insurance. Insurance through USAWS is a PITA, requiring a sanctioned event (even for practice), a trained driver (two trained drivers if the driver plans to ski) and a safety person (ditto if the safety guy wants to ski). SPORTSINSURANCE.com requires a waiver and provides the same limits of liability noted above for (probably, I'm not the underwriter) less than a quarter of the premium paid by @oldmanskier, maybe a little more if they have a jump or a claims history. #iskiconnelly
    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
    WayneFeinbergLovell
  • The_MSThe_MS Posts: 5,466 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    So if someone walks down to the lake and drowns, would the SPORTSINSURANCE defend that?
    I would like to hear some stories about what kind of incidents happened and results of lawsuits.
    The USA insurance only covers medical out and beyond what the injured person has.
    The boat policy has liability if your boat is involved
    Shut up and ski
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 2,652 Mega Baller
    @MS I don't have a policy in front of me to read, but if I were an insured lake owner, I would expect coverage in that situation. #iskiconnelly
    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
    WayneFeinberg
  • blockblock Posts: 172 Baller
    Just a heads up; If it is a 10 member club and not the lake owners that you are insuring, it is a different animal to underwrite .
    John Seiler
  • WayneFeinbergWayneFeinberg Posts: 1 Baller
    Unless there are losses, it is not difficult to underwrite or insure the 10 person club. I take applications and insure them all the time. Generally, the owner of the lake does not get insurance unless they are also doing the watersport activity. It is common to name the lake owner as additional insured under the club's policy to extend the liability of the club to the owner. The Sportsinsurance.com policy has two components, accident medical and general liability. Feel free to call 518-891-2020 and ask for Wayne Feinberg and I can go over coverages and work up a free quote. I can also be reached by email at [email protected] if that is easier. I am not on Ball of Spray very often but can try to respond to questions through this blog also.
    MISkier9400ForrestGump
  • jdarwinjdarwin Posts: 1,381 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    The tort laws differ from state to state. In Louisiana, if someone comes onto my property uninvited, falls into my lake and drowns, he's SOL. The laws in Louisiana were modified some years ago to protect the timber industry from frivolous lawsuits brought by trespassers. Also, there are certainly ways of setting up the corporate structure of your lake to insulate the owners from liability. Insurance is an instrument to transfer risk. The lower the risk, the lower the insurance premium.
    Joe Darwin
    [Deleted User]
  • LovellLovell Posts: 98 Baller
    I practice law in California and commonly defend personal injury cases involving towed water sports and other recreational activities. I have also defended these sorts of cases in A variety of other jurisdictions throughout the country. While there are numerous laws that may protect lake owners in the event of an accident, Relying on these laws or a creative corporate structure as a potential liability shield without being properly insured is almost always a mistake. A lakeowner should purchase as much insurance as they can reasonably afford and should also take a variety of other steps to make sure they are not unnecessarily placing themselves at risk.
    I could go on and on about this topic.... But I don't want bore everyone to death.
    Dragodbutcher
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 2,652 Mega Baller
    @Lovell Exactly. #iskiconney
    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
  • liquid dliquid d Posts: 1,169 Mega Baller
    10 owners makes it currently only $500 per owner. Shop the policy and maybe get to $400 per owner....doesn't sound like much for the peaceful sleep you'll get knowing you're covered.
    Fast351
  • The_MSThe_MS Posts: 5,466 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    edited May 2016
    Add that to the true cost of a ski set and its a wonder ski sets are what they are.
    So if the same exact accident happens on public water, what happens? I dont hate lawyers but I do hate lawyers that go searching for other peoples money.

    Make America great again
    Shut up and ski
  • LovellLovell Posts: 98 Baller
    @MS great question. The answer re public water is it depends on the scenario and the type of public waterway(ie interstate lake or river, navigable waterway, landlocked lake etc) and the type of public entity involved. It also frankly depends on The nature of the activity and quite frequently nature and level of the insurance involved.

    But I think you hit the nail on the head re other's people's money. If you are unlucky enough to be sued as a boater, lakeowner, homeowner, car operator, etc., if you are properly insured your insurance carrier should pay for your defense in most lawsuits and indemnify you(pay any judgment or settlement).

    Without insurance, you are on your own... Which is not good

    Gotta love America....you can sue anybody for anything at anytime. It does not mean you will win, but your insurance premium is worth the piece of mind....

  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,349 Crazy Baller
    @Lovell , since you stated that you practice law I have a question. Does the signing of a waiver of liability amount to squat when it comes down to lawsuit time? Insurance or not. I've heard that when you get to court, they're worthless. Or is that dependent on the court, or state, or???
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
  • LovellLovell Posts: 98 Baller
    @LeonL again it depends. The answer varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction as well. Generally, a well drafted waiver signed under the right circumstances can be very beneficial in defeating a claim. On the other hand a waiver without the right language signed under the wrong circumstances might not be helpful at all.
  • kdeupserkdeupser Posts: 51 Baller
    @oldmanskier I've been a member of the Atlanta Waterski Club and other's around here for a long time. You need to speak with a certain Carey Z. from the Whitestone club. We had a crazy member go up to Whitestone and ski, then run into the turn island and messed herself up a good bit. Thank God Whitestone had good insurance. She was an absolute BUTT about it and sued them even though it was her fault and she was an AWSA member. It was ugly!

    Also, one time at our Rome, Ga club(Seven Hills, long since closed) we had a barefooter flair out from the boat to far and ran into the dock. Again, we had good insurance. Stay insured for sure. Stuff happens.....
    Lovell
  • oldmanskieroldmanskier Posts: 148 Baller
    kdupser: I have skied at Whitestone a lot in years past. I know the situation you are referring too.
    I know Cary Z very well. He helped me in my boat driving endeavors.
    We will always have insurance. I am just trying to get the best price for the same coverage.

    Current Status:
    Requested two quotes from:
    Jeni at Paramount Insurance Co. Jeni's company does not write insurance in Georgia. Our lake is in Georgia just across the Tenn line so we were out of luck using Paramount.

    Got a quote from Wayne Feinberg at Sportsinsurance. Com.
    Sportsinsurance. Com was way cheaper than our current Global Marine policy.
    Our current Policy and Sportsinsurance.com proposal appear to be the same coverage with Sportsinsuranc.com having slightly better coverage.
    Sportsinsurance.com does require a everyone that skies at site sign a waiver and certain exclusions like no inflatables can be pulled or trampolines. Or club has no issue with that.
    Owners at our lake are reviewing now and hope to make a decision soon.

    Question:
    Anyone have a good example of a waver they are willing to share?

    Thanks for everyone’s comments on this subject.
    oldmanskier
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 2,652 Mega Baller
    @Mark_Matis @oldmanskier I notice that the Stillwater release form is copyrighted. #iskiconnelly #iwritereleases
    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
  • Fast351Fast351 Posts: 207 Baller
    You have any local gun clubs around? Ask them who they use for insurance. I shoot action shooting sports (3 gun, pistol, etc) and there are several clubs involved. Usually there is an organizing club, and a range (which also has members). You usually sign two waivers, one for the organizing club and one for the range. Generally they're good for a year.

    I seem to remember that the insurance for the organizing club was $5K per year and we had around 20 events per year in something I'd think as a risk would be more expensive to insure than skiing (although the likeliness of injury is much lower, the severeness of said injury is probably higher).
    Mike van Meeteren
  • kdeupserkdeupser Posts: 51 Baller
    @oldmanskier, glad to hear. I've skied your lake some in the past. LOVE the place! Something about the water there at No Wake...I always ski good there, we used to always ski your tournament. Haven't skied there in about 5 or 10 years now. Miss that place.

    Good to hear you all are still at it, I work in Dalton, but live further south. It's about a 2 hour drive or we would have joined.

    Good Luck,
    Ken
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