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Juniors tournament scoring

harddockharddock Posts: 182 Baller
This weekend I hear that a junior at the end of his pass can elect to go up in speed or shorten the line. No longer does one have to reach max division speed before shortening. I have no objection but can someone explain the scoring. If you are a boys 3 and normally would get to 36 before going to 22 off you can now do it @ 32 or 34. If you ran 28 off 32 mph what would your score be? Would it be the same as 28 off @ 36? or ?


Something eles I was made aware of was that if you miss the entrance gate on your first run and still ski the full course and complete your next pass you score all the points. If you don't ski the course or do not make the second 6 you score 0! My boy learned that one the hard way. Missed the gate and thought he was done!
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Comments

  • DragoDrago Posts: 1,598 Mega Baller
    You should read the rule book. There is a scoring chart that will clarify scores. Basically going up in speed or shortening =6 buoys .
    (6 @ 30 mph ,22 off
    = [email protected] mph, 15 off
    = [email protected],28 off
    There is also a "summary of changes" every year you can check out. Available on usawaterski in the "officials resources". Should be in "competitors resources" as well, but is not for some reason :/
    http://www.usawaterski.org/pages/divisions/3event/AWSARuleBook.pdf
    SR SL Judge & Driver (“a driver who is super late on the wheel and is out of sync”)
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,414 Crazy Baller
    The rule you refer to concerning junior scoring is clearly spelled out in a matrix as @Drago mentioned. That rule is new this year. The other rule, allowing a skier to continue after missing the entrance gate was instituted 2'years ago I believe. It only applies to class C.
    The rule book and summary of changes is a stand alone item in the left banner of usawaterski.org.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 3,038 Mega Baller
    The chart is in the new AWSA rule book.
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


  • John BrooksJohn Brooks Posts: 367 Crazy Baller
    That rule regarding choosing between up in speed and rope length also, as with missing the gates, only applies to class C. I believe both rules are good for the sport and the junior rule regarding choosing between speed and rope length is really nice for kids who may not be ready for fast speed and we want to find ways to encourage them to continue skiing and progressing. Seems like this would be a good rule for all classes of skiers considering our zero based scoring system.
    lpskier
  • harddockharddock Posts: 182 Baller
    thanks-It was new to us and we will look into reading up on it. I like it especially since I don't think my boy is ready for 36 just yet! We are going to start shortening @34mph. We had not skied much AWSA last year, He was better suited for the INT Leagues tournaments nearby. Since no more INT in New England we are back to all AWSA. In the past at the slower speeds he never missed the entry gate so we were un aware of that rule.
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 2,876 Mega Baller
    What happened to INT in New England? #iskiconnelly
    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 1,806 Mega Baller
    I just read the rule change. I'm also not sure what I just read.
    Broussard
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,854 Mega Baller
    Here is what I sent my son (B3) skier to explain this:

    Did you know??? That starting this year, you get credit for shorter lines the moment you run an opener. For example, Skier A starts at 30mph LL and Skier B starts at -22 28mph. Both run their opener.
    Skier A's score at that moment is 54 buoys. Skier B's score at that moment is 60 buoys. The new rule adds in both the skipped speeds and the skipped line shortenings upon the completion of the opening pass.

    Further, you must either shorten the line or raise the speed at each subsequent pass. If you do both and are successful, you earn 12 buoys for that.

    Here's some examples:
    30mph -15 = 60 buoys opening pass
    30mph -22 = 66 buoys
    32mph -22 = 72 buoys
    34mph -22 = 78 buoys
    36mph -22 = 84 buoys

    Or

    30mph LL = 54 buoys opening pass
    30mph -15 = 60 buoys
    32mph -15 = 66 buoys
    34mph -15 = 72 buoys
    36mph -15 = 78 buoys
    36mph -22 = 84 buoys

    Or

    30mph LL = 54 buoys opening pass
    32mph -15 = 66 buoys (both speed and line)
    34mph -22 = 78 buoys (both speed and line)
    36mph -22 = 84 buoys

    For more info, see pages 8-9:
    AWSARulesChangesSummary.pdf
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,414 Crazy Baller
    @MrJones it's pretty simple. In a class C a junior skier can either go up in speed or shorten the line or a combination of both and get credit for shorter lines without skiing the max speed for their division. The new scoring program version reminds the scorer that the skier has that choice. At this early juncture of the rule change that's good because undoubtably there are judges who don't know the rule in order to offer the choice to the skier. If you look at the matrix it says a skier may either advance down or to the right within the matrix.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,854 Mega Baller
    @LeonL is correct - Class C only (and only for Juniors).
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 1,806 Mega Baller
    Sorry to be a dummy here, but you are saying that a skier who does not complete a pass a the max speed for their division can beat a skier who does complete a pass at max speed but was at a longer line length???
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 1,806 Mega Baller
    Okay. So I guess I do understand the rule. How about an explanation of how this is a benefit?
    Broussard
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,770 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    I think the primary intended benefit is for kids moving to a new age bracket, like a 10yo boy moving from 30mph to 34 or a 14yo moving to 36. They may not be physically mature enough and may get frustrated by the faster speed as opposed to staying slower and shortening the rope. The way the rule is written goes beyond the most obvious cases and lets any kid try shorter lines.

    On one hand I really don't agree with this rationale, but on the other hand I'm a firm believer that we need to try new ideas to see if they work before dismissing them.
    I'm Ancient. WTH do I know?
    ToddLTexas6
  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 6,056 Mega Baller
    I think it is a good idea for juniors moving up in age bracket. Frankly I wouldn't see anything wrong with doing it in any age bracket in a class C tournament if it gets more people out to ski. Nationals and all other ELR events should be traditional scoring.
    Mark Shaffer
    dchristman
  • socalskiersocalskier Posts: 62 Baller
    The rule change is well intended but poorly applied. The rule should include reg/nats or it offers no true benefit for attracting more skiers to these events.
    The simple fix is to retire B/G 1-3 and make it B/G 1-4 with shorter divisions and an increase of speed by only 2 mph. B1 to B2 speed change is ridiculous and many 14yo B3 are simply not ready physically for the increase to 36.
    G 1-4 28 to 34
    B 1-4 30 to 36
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 1,806 Mega Baller
    socalskier.... I like it! More opportunity for kids to get trophies, set records, etc., instead of just taking a beating the first year or two in a new division.
  • harddockharddock Posts: 182 Baller
    lpskier.... We sent in our membership and two days later there was a notice that due to lack of sponsorship there would no INT events this year. We received a refund!
  • DragoDrago Posts: 1,598 Mega Baller
    @Bruce_Butterfield why would you disagree with something that keeps people skiing ?
    SR SL Judge & Driver (“a driver who is super late on the wheel and is out of sync”)
  • sunperchsunperch Posts: 267 Crazy Baller
    I am curious on how this will affect the rankings list and who qualifies for Regionals and Nationals. I would hate for a kid who is skiing at his max speed and is on the bubble for qualifying be bumped by someone who was skiing at a slower speed, especially since that kid would not be able to cut line at slower speed at E/L/R tournament. This option allows for someone to "play the numbers game".
    Mateo_VargasBruce_Butterfield
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,414 Crazy Baller
    @sunperch I would say the "numbers game" is available to everyone. If the max speed skier feels the under max skier scoring higher by going to the shorter line is at an advantage, why not play the same game.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 1,806 Mega Baller
    Let's make it even more confusing. I miss the days of the EP.
  • gjohnsongjohnson Posts: 337 Solid Baller
    I like the rule change. Once a boy graduates to B2, he's going the same speed as Masters Men. Draw your own conclusions from that....
    Greg Johnson ~ Team Beer
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,770 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame

    @Drago I dont see this at all as something "that keeps people skiing" 



    My disagreement with this rule is due to several things:



    1) it effectively "lowers the bar" that the kids measure themselves against.  At the rate that kids progress, I believe it's important to challenge them and they will frequently rise to the challenge and then some.  Letting them stay slow and shorten may help some, but I think the majority will be better off increasing the speed. As an example, when my son went from B1 to B2 he was getting into 28 off at 30mph. He was on the small size for his age, but it only took 2- 3 weeks for him get back into 28 at 34.  And yes it "looked" like he was going way too fast for his size. If he stayed at 30 and shortened the rope I believe his progress would have been slower.



    2) it creates confusion on the kids part if well intentioned parents keep them slower and other kids in the division.  How do you explain this rule to a 10yo?



    3) I'm sure there are some kids who would progress better, but they are in the minority and are they skiing tournaments or just for fun?  Going slow to learn new line lengths is a good training option regardless of age.  Tournaments should have a consistent level basis.



    4)  right now the rule is only class C, but I see real issues if (when?) this is in place for regionals and nationals. What about the B3 who can run 8 more buoys at 34 vs 36?  Or the G2 who can run 10 more buoys at 30 vs 32?  Many of the top skiers will be thinking about strategy to maximize their score. So is that really a fair and level playing field?



    These are my thoughts why I don't like this rule and like I said, we need to try new things and be open minded. Maybe my concerns will be proven incorrect.
    I'm Ancient. WTH do I know?
    sunperchwalleyeRichardDoane
  • elrelr Posts: 316 Mega Baller
    This may be the first rule change change resulting from a BOS discussion[s]. Kudos to Jeff Surdej for trying something new. I personally do NOT believe that Top 5 placements at Regionals/Nationals would be impacted as the top skiers would be skiing at max speed anyway. In any event all skiers under this system would have the the choice to ski at the speed that maximizes their score.

    Here are links to the discussions[s]:

    Would doing away with max speeds change slalom for the better?


    Boys 3 - The progression from 34 to 36
    Ed Rink - LSF Texas
  • DragoDrago Posts: 1,598 Mega Baller
    I see it as something used in the Fall when the speed change happens, or maybe even through the first year of a new division. Never had a problem explaining rates of progress and enjoying the process vs. "results" or "winning".
    I recall Mapple saying speeds were too fast for kids way back when. I realize it is probably not a rule for the top 20-30 in the nation, but I see it helping newer kids and occasional tourney skiers. I think we should let adults go any speed they choose as well.(m2 @34, m3 @36, etc)
    SR SL Judge & Driver (“a driver who is super late on the wheel and is out of sync”)
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,854 Mega Baller
    @Bruce_Butterfield: "Many of the top skiers will be thinking about strategy to maximize their score." Yep.

    My son would have liked this his first year as B3. Now, in his second year (and taller than me), he is thinking strategy vs. need. Honestly, he hasn't mastered either -22 34MPH or 36MPH at -15. So, he is wondering which he should tackle first. He likes the options. But, he also sees how any kid can work the rule to maximize buoys against an uninformed competitor.
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • harddockharddock Posts: 182 Baller
    edited June 2016
    My boy has been to three tournaments in New England. B3 Starting at 28 15 off and ending with 4 32 15 off scored as 4 at 32 long line. then 5 at 32 15 off scored as [email protected] long line. and lastly after a full run @ 34 15 off he shortened to 22 and ran a 2 @ 34 22 off scored as 2 at 34 long line. Results posted but unofficial.

    So using the new rule pass #4 skiing 15 off 34 is scored as 34 long line and then at pass #5 he gets 2 @ 22 off 34 and is scored as 2 a 34 long line. His score is lower at pass #5 22 off then it was at pass #4 with a full run @ 34 15 0ff. Every pass is scored at his speed long line. I understand 36 is his max speed but buoy count went down as line got shorter.

    I was led to believe the 15 off scores would be = the same as long line next higher speed. Subsequently the 32 15 off should have = 34 LL and 34/22 off should have been scored = to 36/15 off. What am I not getting?
  • DragoDrago Posts: 1,598 Mega Baller
    TMI : can you give us his one best score . Ex: [email protected], 34
    SR SL Judge & Driver (“a driver who is super late on the wheel and is out of sync”)
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,414 Crazy Baller
    edited June 2016
    My understanding of the new rule and the way the scoring matrix is written, the 34/15 should be scored as 72 with the [email protected] should be 74. Anything other than that would be on accord with the old rule. Now having said that I have confused myself. I have to assume that the scoring program being used at that tournament is not at current level. Or, Was the tournament being run as an "L" perhaps? Did you talk to the scorer and CJ about that score? I'm finding a lot of judges have no knowledge of this change, but the software alerts the scorer to skier's option in this regard.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
  • harddockharddock Posts: 182 Baller
    Best score was [email protected] 22, 34 mph. (B3)
    this was right after a full pass 34/15 off. it was a class c tournament as were the previous ones. There was a class L being run on another pond at the same time same site. However the long line same speed scoring was also at two other previous class c tournaments in two different states. The judge was told and was aware of the rules. I think the computer may be the problem. I messaged him when I read the scores but that was just today. I am only mentioning it here because maybe I am not understanding something and need some clarification.
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