What the heck do you do with the handle right after the second wake?

HortonHorton Posts: 27,225 Administrator
I feel like I have pretty darn good connection off the second wake but I look at pictures and sometimes wonder if I am on the right track.

My question is how do you think about it. Where do you try to place the handle at the end of edge change? My assumption is that there are a lot of different thought processes out there.
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Comments

  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,788 Mega Baller
    Try to? Trailing hip. (right hip edge changing into 2-ball)
    In reality? anywhere in close
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • skidawgskidawg Posts: 3,261 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    No diapers to change this morning I assume?
    Mr. Mom is Horton's favorite movie!
    AndreWishMS
  • RazorRoss3RazorRoss3 Posts: 1,329 Mega Baller
    I push down with my lats to hold it close.
    Horton
  • jimbrakejimbrake Posts: 1,279 Mega Baller
    Right. About. Here.


    "...all of the basic fun banter"
    Wish
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,225 Administrator
    @jimbrake I'm talking about right after edge change not at the ball line
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  • keithh2oskierkeithh2oskier Posts: 508 Crazy Baller
    Like this?

  • lakeaustinskierlakeaustinskier Posts: 348 Solid Baller
    It might not matter (at least for me). Maybe don't worry about your hands and focus on something else. I really focus on my hips at that particular point - my connection to the handle and where it is in relation to my inside hip and how close the handle is to my body.

    For me its a mental thing - if I worry about my hands and the handle etc. I tend to transfer my load to my upper body and arms. While I understand @RazorRoss3 with the lats (and I agree with him if you can do it) personally I can't think that way. I would get into trouble by instead pushing the handle down with my arms and then my upper body lurches forward and then the train comes off the tracks.

    Ted Thomson, Austin Texas, Aquaplex
    Horton
  • WishWish Posts: 7,724 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited August 2016
    To place the handle may only be a thought process rather then a successful move. I think it's more dinamic and compounding. It's so dependent to how much speed you carry into the first wake and the amount of load to CL and past. I think each side of the course ends up being different as well. If speed is up and loads are low, it is not overly hard to carry the handle close to the body up to a high point on the boat. The opposite also being true. I think about keeping the handle as close as loads and speeds will allow. To attemp more is to pull myself to the inside to soon to hard and shutting down outbound momentum. For those that let go to soon and give up outbound swing I have had success in telling them they need to "level" the handle before they let go. Level being 1/4 rotation from where it was crossing the wake. What does not work well is saying "hold the handle closer and longer". This generally is to vague and results in holding on to long, or not enough and with to much force. Having them leveling does 2 things...it keeps them on the handle long enough as they are doing something with it (can feel uncomfortablely long but it's about right) and it keeps them from attempting to pin it to their vest as that can be counter productive. CP is rather robotic with this. The handle turns about 1/4 from what it was going across the wake. Is it intentional.?..don't know. But suggesting it has helped skiers in that phase between the edge change ang letting go.

    Edit: also depends on how much of your COM is over the front of the ski off the second wake.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    jimbrakeGloersendrewski32
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,225 Administrator
    edited August 2016
    @skidawg actually doing potty training this morning. Sitting in the bathtub with my laptop waiting for Buford to do her business and thinking about my edge change.

    What I have been doing (when I remember) is to push the handle a bit down and maybe forward as the ski sweeps out. Not a full on Jamie Beauchesne "Golf Swing" maneuver but more of a resistance down. What worried me is images like this. I am not sure if this is really a bad position or not.

    I see this image and I think I am in the right place but am just not sure.


    And then I see images like below and I want to cry. I see my ass over the back of my ski and left bicep looks to be pulling in. It is that pulling in action that I am unsure about. Maybe it is ok. IDK. I can guess that @matthewbrown would just cuss a blue streak at me and tell me to stop dragging my ass in the water.




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  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 1,764 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    I really like the thought of "in" and "down". It's hard to have your butt and the handle both low. If I remember to feel that the handle is moving down as I'm moving through the wakes it moves me "up" over the ski at the edge change. Then, when at the buoy the handle moves up so you can move back under the line. (Really worked on this early in the summer after watching frame by frame of JMac)

    Now if I could do that more than 5% of the time I'd run more buoys.
    HortonMarcoBruce_ButterfieldBeastmode
  • Skoot1123Skoot1123 Posts: 1,793 Mega Baller
    @horton are you thinking of a particular line length or are you trying to apply this to all line lengths?
  • MillerTime38MillerTime38 Posts: 328 Crazy Baller
    I really focus on not bending my arms and keeping the handle low. A lot of people hear "control the handle" and think they need to "pull" the handle in. As my uncle used to say "Pulling is something you do in a warm shower". If I can keep the handle low and keep my arms straight I get more width and stay more balanced over my ski through the turn.
    RazorRoss3HortonRichardDoane
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,425 Mega Baller
    These moments pass by so quick that it is tough to answer this question. When the second wake is under my feet, I am attempting to keep my arms straight and hands close to my hip. This is, in effect, pushing the handle lower, and tends to bring my body higher. However, sometimes it is easy to get stuck in that position and the next thing you know you aren't edge-changing, but pulling for the shoreline (bad!). Chet said to me once that there are only two places for your handle -- within six inches of your hip, or reaching for the turn. When I execute on that advice, things seem pretty darned good. When I don't, well, then I have to find a way to power my way out of the pass (bad!).

    All of that said, Horton's pictures are further off of the wake than the point I was discussing above. At the point he is at in those pictures, I'm just trying to keep my elbows close to my vest and maintain a connection to the boat. This raises an interesting point on the so-called handle control debate. Think about the following dynamic at shortline:

    The handle wants to travel up the side of the boat. If I travel in the direction of the handle path, the handle should be more in front of me than beside me. Additionally, this orientation of handle to person should help to move me forward on the ski as I am traveling up the side of the boat. This requires very little load, and therefore allows me to control my handle/keep the handle close to my body.

    Conversely, if I attempt to travel outbound after the second wake, particularly at 38 off and shorter, I am traveling away from the handle path, the handle is moving behind me, my weight is moving back, AND I'm getting separated. Superman can't keep the handle tight in this circumstance.

    In short, the only way to have the handle where you want it and your weight where you want it is to travel the handle path after you reach centerline, which means moving up the side of the boat sooner than you think.
    Jim Ross
    Than_Boganskialex
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,425 Mega Baller
    BTW, you can see that in the picture of Nate. His handle is actually in front of him, not beside him, and that is a function of his direction, not his strength or his placement of the handle.
    Jim Ross
  • jimbrakejimbrake Posts: 1,279 Mega Baller
    @horton - I know. I just wanted to post that pic of Terry because it's such an awesome pic of where the handle should be if you do what you are asking about correctly.

    Something I noticed skiing in the deep water at Broadside was that if I didn't really focus on my connection and let the handle get away too soon, I'd come up narrow at the next ball. Especially going left from 1 to 2, 3 to 4, and 5 to 6 into that quartering headwind skiing back toward the starting dock. It forced me to really think about and feel that connection through and beyond the edge change (the Terry part being the "beyond"). Skiing in adverse conditions often helps me realize what I need to do correctly. Brought that little tidbit of learning home with me and it has really helped. To do it, I just focus on pushing my core through my forearms and holding that connection past the edge change. For me at least the past the edge change part is the most important. That's why that pic of Terry hit home with me.
    "...all of the basic fun banter"
    RichardDoaneMarcoMillerTime38
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,225 Administrator
    @Skoot1123 this stuff matters at all line lengths but I do not think most skiers really learn to control the handle much until they are running 32 off or shorter.
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  • ozskiozski Posts: 1,649

    'Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.'' Boat 2005 Nautique 196 6L ZO - Ski - KD Platinum

    jimbrake
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,225 Administrator
    @ozski that image is a lot farther away from the wakes than what i am talking about. Pretty sure CP lets go with one hand in the next frame.
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  • skidawgskidawg Posts: 3,261 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    Keep handle low thru transition w/ outside arm/hand pressure
    Mr. Mom is Horton's favorite movie!
    MattPRazorRoss3ALPJr
  • ZmanZman Posts: 1,439 Crazy Baller
    Just thinking about what @skidawg said seemed to help tonight. Thanks for starting this thread @Horton
    skidawg
  • drewski32drewski32 Posts: 217 Baller
    those pictures of mapple are just.... wow
    Roger
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 1,764 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    Really good stuff Chet. Especially from the boat drivers perspective. I can't tell you have many times I've had Chad say "I'm loosing you into 2 ball". When we get to ski together he coaches more from feel on the boat vs. "seeing" what I'm doing.
  • WishWish Posts: 7,724 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Simplified. You can pressure the line as much as you want or can past CL. You cannot keep pressuring the ski against the water past CL. In the first pic Andy has 0 pressure on the ski but he's giving it his all in pressuring the line. Elbows in, no load other then what he wants to generate by pressuring the line. He can also decide where he wants his arms to be. All because of the speed he took into the CL.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    andjulesbishop8950
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 2,633 Mega Baller
    Grip it and rip it!!!
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,225 Administrator
    edited September 2016
    I was working on this again yesterday. Sometimes (on some skis) I feel like my path into on side is narrower than my path into off side. I think this is because I manage the handle better off the second wake going into off side. When I just remember to squeeze the handle down a forward right off the second wake going to on side I feel like I get to width a lot earlier. It is a small thing but for me it makes a big difference.

    Interesting side note. I skied with @brooks early this year and he was talking to me about my hips off the wakes to get more outbound. I really did not understand how to apply what he was saying. Last time I was in Seattle I asked him about this stuff with the handle and he said it was a different thought process to the same end. When you squeeze the handle forward and down at edge change it does slightly rotate your hips outbound.

    I think at 34 mph you can screw this skill up pretty bad and still ski ok but at 36 mph the margin of error is much smaller.
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  • slowslow Posts: 348 Solid Baller
    Never tire of Mapple photos or video. Tried out my old 2000 mapple signature ski last week. Felt like I was dragging around a log. Amazed at the amount of speed he could generate out of that ski.
  • BlueSkiBlueSki Posts: 624 Crazy Baller
    @Horton, when you mention moving the handle forward and down, are you going this in concert with your hips and perhaps relative to your feet? I am working heavily on the transition with Stisher's coaching and his help has gotten me to 35, so it is coming along, but I still have a ton to work on. It sometimes feels like a movement now instead of just a forced action. Nevertheless, I am regularly experimenting with different thoughts to achieve the goal. Handle forward and down seems like it might be a way to think externally to keep my COM traveling outbound.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,225 Administrator
    @BlueSki for me all I think about is my hands but it for sure moves my hips a little. More than one way to skin a cat.

    FYI I think about resisting down and forward but I doubt you could see it from the boat.
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