Difference between Good Side & Bad Side?

HortonHorton Posts: 27,225 Administrator
edited March 2010 in Technique & Theory
<p>
I am working on an idea that is not necessarily all the way cooked. Comments and additions welcome. (If Eric agrees then this is all wrong.)
</p>
<p>
If you think about the difference between Good Side (Heel Side) and Bad Side (Toe Side), I think you need to divide the differences between what your body does from how that affects what your ski does.
</p>
<p>
On your Toe Side – Bad Side – 1/3/5 RFF (compared to On Side)
</p>
<p>
On the way to the ball:

1) You hips are generally more rotated toward the wakes

2) Your counter rotation  - hips, shoulders or whatever is less

3) Your inside shoulder is more leaned in

4) Your weight distribution is more forward

5) Your body is more in-line (right to left)
</p>
<p>
On Heel Side

The opposite of all above -on Heel Side (On Side) you are more countered with less weight on your front foot. With the additional counter rotation you can more easily move your hips toward the wakes and keep your inside shoulder up.
</p>
<p>
If this is all correct, you turn your ski with more weight on your front foot but less roll on Toe Side. On Heel Side your ski has more roll but has a more tip up attitude.
</p>
<p>
Make sense?
</p>
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Comments

  • Thomas WayneThomas Wayne Posts: 550 New Baller
    <p>
     
    </p>
    <p>
    Hasn't it been taught forever that you control your<em> off-side</em> with your front foot and your <em>on-side</em> with your back foot?  This sounds a lot like what point # 4 & your conclusion are saying...
    </p>
    <p>
    TW
    </p>
  • skibugskibug Posts: 2,029
    <p>
    Your legs work in concert no matter what; but, on your bad side your back leg is working against (or across) you body's natural motion or force.  Consider if you were in a tug-a-war.  You wouldn't cross your front leg across your back to gain ultimate force, balance, and leverage; you would have to switch your stance.  I think, until there is a ski that allows your to switch your stance mid-pull; we are stuck with trying to overcome the natural force diagrams of physics.
    </p>
    Bob Grizzi
  • RichardDoaneRichardDoane Posts: 4,059 Mega Baller
    Try not to have a "bad" side, symmetry is the goal.
    BallOfSpray Pacific Northwest Vice President of Event Management, aka "Zappy"
  • h2odawg79h2odawg79 Posts: 599 Baller
    <p>
    Skibug,
    </p>
    <p>
    I love the "Tug o war" analogy. Everytime I used it on other boards, someone is always quick to say: <em>"But, Slalom is NOT a Tug o War"</em>... And I have to remind them of the Basic dynamics involved. The legs do work in unison or "in concert" for Balance and Leverage. And as far as LFF or RFF most people are naturally predisposed to Rt. or Lt. dominance anyway. And then they voluntarily practice and perfect these motions with Basic sport movements Growing up. i.e. A pitcher throwing a pitch(start to finish). A batter stepping into a swing. A golfer tee-ing off. A bowler during the finish/follow through at the line. A boxer throwing a knock out punch. etc, etc.... 
    </p>
    HOO HAW! thankya very much
  • DWDW Posts: 1,973 Mega Baller
    I have eliminated the off side / on side problem with the following.  Velcro the ski top, wear velcroed tennis shoes and at the Apex of the turn push knees forward to disengage the velco jump up and switch stance.  Thus you are skiing on side both ways and don't have an off or weak side.  BTW, April Fool.
  • <p>
    In attempting to better my technique, I've pretty much given up trying to have my back knee tucked into the bend of the front knee like I was taught many moons ago.  Doing so allows me to better rotate my hips and have my legs work a little bit more independently of one another when they need to.  Am I off base with that?
    </p>
    <p>
    I also find that when I need to concentrate on technique that I can pretty much only focus on one thing.  The most helpful thing is to keep my shoulders level.  If my shoulders are level, everything pretty much aligns itself down - assuming I'm centered on the ski, of course.
    </p>
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,225 Administrator
    Ok so only talking about from the wakes to the ball, do you guys agree with my first post?
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  • MarcoMarco Posts: 1,407 Crazy Baller
    <p>
    You hit the nail on the head in my opinion.  The greater tip pressurer explains the tip stall I often get on my offside at my shortest line length.
    </p>
    <p>
    I thought Terry Winter's photo of the transposition of his offside shows it clearly.
    </p>
  • Jim NeelyJim Neely Posts: 291 Baller
    <p>
    To Horton:
    </p>
    <p>
    Yes, except I would never use heel side/toe side when referring to slalom. I understand it but it makes no sense when your feet are in a straight line.
    </p>
    68" Vapor
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,480 Mega Baller
    edited April 2010
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman">You are generally correct, including the not all the way cooked part<img src="/vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-tongue-out.gif" border="0" alt="Tongue out" title="Tongue out" /></font></font></font>
    </p>
    <font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman"> </font></font></font>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">You have identified a real situation, now the hard part is to determine what is the cause, what is the effect, and what can/should you do about it?</font>
    </p>
    <font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman"> </font></font></font>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">I think the reason most skiers turn with more pressure on the front toe on the offside and back heel on the good side is precisely because of the way the body lines up with the ski –it naturally shifts the weight distribution on the ski.<span>  </span>The reverse image photo of Terry is a great example of how the body lines up differently and affects the way we turn the ski on each side.</font>
    </p>
    <font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman"> </font></font></font>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">If you pretend for a minute that from the waist up, your upper body could behave exactly the same on each side, for example, Terry’s reverse image would be exactly the same as the regular one.<span>  </span>How would that affect the way the ski turns on each side?<span>  </span>It would probably turn very symmetrically and it would be much easier to stay balanced on the ski.</font>
    </p>
    <font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman"> </font></font></font>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">I keep coming back to the similarities between snow and water skiing.<span>  </span>The really good snow skiers are very still from the waist up, with the shoulders facing perfectly downhill while the skis and knees go back and forth.<span>  </span>The Olympic mogul skiers were flat amazing in this regard.<span>  </span>I believe the same principle applies to slalom skiing.<span>  </span>The goal should be to keep the shoulders facing perfectly down course all the time.<span>  </span>Counter-rotation is automatic if you do this.<span>  </span>It is much easier to keep the shoulders and eyes level.<span>  </span>Angulation between the upper and lower body can actually happen on both sides.<span>  </span>If the angulation is the same, the ski roll will be the same on each side.<span>  </span>Weight shift from front to back foot will almost disappear.</font>
    </p>
    <font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman"> </font></font></font>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman">Of course as long as we have one foot in front of the other, it will be next to impossible to keep the shoulders ‘perfectly’ downcourse, but that should be the goal and the mental picture to achieve.<span>  </span></font></font></font>
    </p>
    I'm Ancient. WTH do I know?
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,819 Infinite Pandas
    <p>
    I"ll lose some credibility by disagreeing with Bruce, but waterskiing is a lot different than snow skiing. Waterskiing turns are 2 seconds long, snow skiing turns are ten times faster! You cannot move the upper body fast enough in snow skiing to match your feet. Control of the upper body is critical for both but some people use a stilted excessive counter-rotation which may hurt their balance for slalom.
    </p>
    <p>
    There is no heelside/toeside in slalom. Wakeboarding or snowboarding yes but waterskiing no. Heel pressure in slalom offers no benefit on either side. The body mechanics of the good side allow beginners at slow speeds to really stomp the back foot and kick up some big spray. But this is just a bad habit to break in the course. Proper fore aft balance is the same on either side of the course. I personally have too much tip pressure on my good side - 4 ballitis causes most of my misses.
    </p>
    <p>
    The offside turn has the best body mechanics position as you approach the ball. It is easy to start the turn in good body balance. As your turn progresses, the body mechanics deteriorate. Survive the pull (a bit open to the boat helps me some) and just be patient until the good side turn helps improve the body dynamics.
    </p>
    <p>
    No wonder my buoy count is so low!
    </p>
    <p>
    Eric
    </p>
    <p>
    Maybe Horton is filtering my comments out - maybe this will post without a user error.
    </p>
  • RichardDoaneRichardDoane Posts: 4,059 Mega Baller
    Eric - stop fixating your vision on the 4 ball, and remember to get it back up where it belongs on the 5 as soon as you're sure you'll round the 4.  I blow it there regularly.
    BallOfSpray Pacific Northwest Vice President of Event Management, aka "Zappy"
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,819 Infinite Pandas
    <p>
    My favorite coaching tip is "don't look at the ball!" I wish I could follow my own advice... 
    </p>
    <p>
    While I am not a great GS racer (Laura Johnson's time trounced me in the last race I tried - she is fast), the GS course is not the few balanced turns of waterski course. Sometimes as hard an edge as you can hold is followed by a smooth edge. Transitions between wildly different turns are the challenge of the gates.
    </p>
    <p>
    GS turns are also symmetrical right to left. Body mechanics make slalom completely different right to left.
    </p>
    <p>
    Angulation from the knees down works on snow for some turns. Cranking the knees over will almost guarantee you will not make the next ball.
    </p>
    <p>
    Besides who GSs when there is fresh powder?  Or a sweet zipper line in the bumps!
    </p>
    <p>
    Snow skiing does require lots of dynamic balance - just like waterskiing. That is real. Doing some snow skiing in winter will help your waterskiing. It snowed a foot as typed this. Powder tomorrow!
    </p>
    <p>
    The new ski is just out of the mold needing its finish. In order to balance good side / bad side I will mount both bindings offset to the left (I'm RFF). This gives more edge control on the edge which is harder to control due to twisted legs.
    </p>
    <p>
    Ski design and setup can to some degree offset the biomechanical limits of slalom skiing. Does this mean I agree with Horton?
    </p>
    <p>
    Eric
    </p>
  • RichardDoaneRichardDoane Posts: 4,059 Mega Baller
    Eric - looking at the ball is ok, as long as you are looking well in advance, and get your vision up to the next ball on schedule.  I don't know how many times I've fixated on the  ball for too long, only to end up swimming right beside it....
    BallOfSpray Pacific Northwest Vice President of Event Management, aka "Zappy"
  • h2odawg79h2odawg79 Posts: 599 Baller
    <span><font size="1" color="#aaaaaa">CommentAuthor</font></span><a href="http://ballofspray.com/vanillaforum/account.php?u=14"><strong>eleeski</strong></a>
    <div class="CommentNotice">
    ***Previously thought to be #1 Mens 55+ Tricker in the World***
    </div>
    <div class="CommentNotice">
    How did you ever get your Cool "Pink Banner"?!?!
    </div>
    HOO HAW! thankya very much
  • MattPMattP Posts: 5,981 Mega Baller
    ***Previously thought to be #1 Mens 55+ Tricker in the World*** ? When did this change from *** #1 Mens 55+ Tricker in the World***
  • 454SS454SS Posts: 169 Baller
    I think that looking at snow skiing has a lot of benefits, as a snow skier turns either the left ski or the right ski leads depending on which way they are turning. As a skier turns left their left ski leads and carries most of the weight and determines the apex of their turn while the right ski really generally just helps balance and support, the left ski then carries most of the weight all the way through the turn until the edge change where the exact opposite happens. The difference in waterskiing happens when we get to our offside turn and the foot that would naturally balance us through the turn, and determine the apex of the turn is instead behind our support foot, the only reason our bodies can be in this position is because of the rope, in our offside turn we lean on the rope to much through the turn and across the wakes, the less we lean on the rope and the more balanced we can become on the front foot the more efficiently we can ski the offside turn. I think that in general you will always have more line load on the offside turn because you really are trying to turn and stay balance on the ski a way that is completely opposite to what your body would normally. I don't know maybe this is all completely obvious to you guys but I just started thinking about it as i was reading this thread and thought I would comment.
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,819 Infinite Pandas
    <p>
    I am an old 54 now - I'm not sure how I got my ranking. I do understand how they recalculated it. It was fun to be in the mix (Cory has a lock on the 45 group and Paul Risch has the 55s) and it was fun while it lasted.
    </p>
    <p>
    The banner occurs when Horton puts you on probation (MS has been there too). I'm not sure it was pink when I was #1 but I guess falling off the top puts me back on probation.
    </p>
    <p>
    I missed lunch today cause the snow skiing was too excellent. So while I take a contrarian position maybe I do follow the collective wisdom of this site. Oh wait, I am still building my homemade skis. Horton, can I have a new BallOfSpray sticker for the ski I'm building?
    </p>
    <p>
    Eric
    </p>
  • DragoDrago Posts: 1,488 Mega Baller
    <p>
     I would say JH is correct. In snow skiing, in a turn to the left, the left ski leads because your left hip is leading. Their is very little weight on your left ski, because physics won't allow it.A car has nearly all it's weight on the right tires [front going into the turn and rear coming out of the turn, generally], because of physics. I would do yourself a favor and think of waterskiing as waterskiing, and skiing as skiing. Their are simalarities, but it takes a lifetime to truly understand them, so it would take two lifetimes to understand the differences/similarities. Look at Brent's article in WaterSki. It makes no sense. It didn't twenty years ago, either.
    </p>
    <p>
    The only true similarity is that your hips TRY to be perpendicular to the force. This is the "strongest" position skeletally [is that a word?]. The forces are extremely different, and the goals are extremely different. Ski racers try to use gravity to get them down the hill [going <em>with</em> the force as much as possible], waterskiers <em>resist</em> the forces only as much as needed. The off-side is different because your hip can't lead.
    </p>
    SR SL Judge & Driver (“a driver who is super late on the wheel and is out of sync”)
  • <p>
    ELee -
    </p>
    <p>
    I recall reading an article in Skiing magazine a number of years ago that compared the times of maximum muscle contraction for snow skiing to other sports.  Snow skiing had BY FAR the longest durations.  Compare it to say a tennis serve where the muscles fire for 10's or 100's of a second.  Snow skiing was something like 1.25 seconds of sustained, maximum exertion.  I'm not at all sure how this compares to a water ski turn as either the article did not compare it or I simply forgot.   My only reason for bringing it up is that yes, a water ski turn takes longer to complete, but I'd bet you're using different muscles for different aspects of the turn.  There's definitely more of an upper body strength component in water skiing.
    </p>
    <p>
    With the off side turn I prefer to think that I can't get my hips out of the way.  That's why I don't try to lock my knees together any longer.
    </p>
  • h2odawg79h2odawg79 Posts: 599 Baller
    <p>
    Another interesting aspect to add to the mix is; The relationship of dominate Leg and Sub-dominate Leg. As some skiers use their dominate leg fwd. and some  put their dominate Leg in the rear! This has to have some Balance and counter balance effect on both the turns and the pull aspect. Maybe for better and for worse... Which leads me to believe that skiers turns are not all created equal.
    </p>
    <p>
    i.e. Think about a Rt. handed, Rt. Footed person throwing a Ball. Dominate Rt. leg "Rocks" and pushes off and the Sub-dominate leg Lt. leg, is Always the "plant" foot. The same Guy Batting Rt. handed, Same scenario, "Rocks" back on the Dominate Rt. and steps into or onto the sub-dominate everytime. The same guy serving a tennis Ball, Throwing a straight Rt. knock out punch, Driving a Golfball always the same.
    </p>
    <p>
    Most of us grew up playing these kind of sports practicing and perfecting this Very Basic move over and over a million times. Then someone comes along and teaches this same guy how to Slalom ski and for no apparent reason, (no justifiable reason) has him put his dominate, "rocking" Leg up front and he literally has to un-learn everything he's ever practiced and perfected in every other sport he's ever played !
    </p>
    <p>
    Then ther'es the Rt. hand/Rt. Leg guy who learns to Slalom with his dominate "Rocking" Leg in the back just like it has always been... That's Got to cause some (no matter how slight, but absolute) Differences between skiers in the corners and in every other aspect of Balance, Power and Leverage...   
    </p>
    HOO HAW! thankya very much
  • h2odawg79h2odawg79 Posts: 599 Baller
    B4 I get Hammered here for my above post, Make sure you Fully consider the Hip action, Balance, and COM thru the above motions... Before saying skiing has your legs in a straight line and Batting doesn't, etc, etc... Just think about it for a sec. -Then Hammer me! ha,ha...
    HOO HAW! thankya very much
  • Thomas WayneThomas Wayne Posts: 550 New Baller
    <p>
    I have always started my new skiers the same way I was taught: whichever foot they would normally kick a football with goes in front (there are, of course, other <em>confirming</em> "tests" used as well).
    </p>
    <p>
    TW
    </p>
  • RichardDoaneRichardDoane Posts: 4,059 Mega Baller
    I''ll have beginning skiers stand at attention, then have them take a step forward. Whichever foot they move determines their front foot for slalom.
    BallOfSpray Pacific Northwest Vice President of Event Management, aka "Zappy"
  • skibugskibug Posts: 2,029
    <p>
    My test has always been telling the new skier to stand up and i give them a gentle shove from behind; then what ever leg they catch themselves with is the front leg.
    </p>
    Bob Grizzi
  • Ed_ObermeierEd_Obermeier Posts: 1,339 Crazy Baller
    <p>
    Ditto what skibug said.  That's how I was taught, sure seems to work.
    </p>
    <p>
    Ed
    </p>
    Ed Obermeier - owner, EZ-Slalom Course Systems
    www.ez-slalom.com
  • robscholl-OFrobscholl-OF Posts: 285 Baller
    <p>
    Amen to RD, skibug and Ed.  That is why I am left foot forward.  If I would go with TW's method, I would be a right foot forward......Come to think of it, if TW's right, I have been skiing backwards all these years.  Maybe if I change, -38 will be in my future......OF
    </p>
  • h2odawg79h2odawg79 Posts: 599 Baller
    <p>
    Well I certainly didn't write the above to Hijack Hortons Idea post. But, those are some inherent differences that will have an impact on tech.
    </p>
    <p>
    As far as the "which foot tests" I still gotta ask; How do these "tests" really prove anything? -I'm not neccessarily saying their wrong or right. But, I was taught with exactly the same "test" as T.W. except, and a very BIG exception, the Ball kicking foot should go to the REAR! (which by the way, keeps it in the same relationship as some of the other above mentioned sports!?!?)
    </p>
    <p>
    I don't want to dispute a right or wrong. (as it can be done either way...) But, there is probably a "Better" or "optimum" choice for the majority of <u>"New"</u> skiers. But, more importantly, Who made up these arbitrary "tests" anyway?  <u>Wheres the Proof?</u>  Forget the opinions and beliefs from what we may or may not have been told Waaaaay back, by other people who were just telling us what they had been told and over and over the cycle goes. -All based on what? -basically, Hear say and "ol Wives tales...
    </p>
    <p>
    How about the Funniest "Test" I've ever heard; <em>"Just do what ever feels the Best"!</em> -That's about like telling a Girl to throw the Ball how ever it "Feels" the Best. (as, Most girls "feel" best throwing off of their FRONT foot! Everyone knows, no girl throwing off of her front foot could ever make the team. But, with some help she can Learn to actually throw with proper tech. and one day make the Varsity team...) In fact, when it comes the Art of Slalom, most of the tech. stuff is counter intuitive anyway. -So much for what ever "feels" the Best! 
    </p>
    <p>
    Sometimes, we know what we know. But, even Great rationalization doesn't mean we're right...  
    </p>
    HOO HAW! thankya very much
  • Thomas WayneThomas Wayne Posts: 550 New Baller
    edited April 2010
    <p>
    I don't think there's any "right", necessarilly.  I've used the "kicking foot", "step forward", "surpise shove from behind", and the "walk up those stairs" tests - all methods taught to me, btw. In my experience a typical testee will exhibit using the same foot for ALL the above tests; using more than one method is sometimes a redundant way to be "sure".
    </p>
    <p>
    So OF would be the less common case of someone who prefers one foot to be dominant for some activities and the other foot for others.  Not saying that makes him an oddball or anything... but I don't recall seeing that very many times over the last few decades.  When we <em>did</em> bump into contradictory results we'd usually use a "preponderance of the evidence" - terminology I'm sure OF is familiar with.
    </p>
    <p>
    TW
    </p>
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,819 Infinite Pandas
    <p>
    h2odawg makes a very good point about dominant foot affecting onside vs offside turns (not a thread hijack). I ski with my dominant foot forward (RFF) and my offside is not too much worse than my onside turn. I'm too lazy to set up the poll: HOW BALANCED ARE YOUR TURNS vs WHICH FOOT FORWARD ARE YOU.
    </p>
    <p>
    Is h2odawg's inference that LFF as the "normal" stance is responsible for some of the onside / offside differences valid? And is LFF an advantage in slalom?
    </p>
    <p>
    When I start a skier the truly relevant question is "what foot forward does your dad ski with?"(or mom or skiing partner). RFF is the default because I feel it is a slight advantage to have the dominant foot in control of the ski for one footed tricks.
    </p>
    <p>
    Alan Podawiltz slaloms LFF and tricks RFF! And does both well. Is that the optimum setup?
    </p>
    <p>
    Eric
    </p>

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