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rebuilding on onside turn

Deep11Deep11 Posts: 221 Solid Baller
i thought given the recent threads - "tipping in the turn" and 'binding rotation" that my winter "project" may be of interest:

So having had a mixed season trying a number of different skies it is clear that the greatest hindrance to progression is me not the ski (sadly).

There are plenty of problems with my skiing, but my most common "fail" is my onside (2,4) turn. The number of times I've wasted perfectly good passes at 2,4 is really frustrating and the boat driver joking about it just confirms things (you know who you are "taxi at 2 ball").
So this off-season I will be mostly working on rebuilding my onside / heal side / 2,4 turn.

I had a think about the best way of achieving this and decided that removing as many variables as possible is important so that I can get as many "controlled" approaches into 2,4 as possible.

This sport doesn't really allow isolation of key areas (which I guess is what makes it so hard to learn / and fun) so to limit things I decided to drop the speed to 32mph and sit at 14m (28off). I don't think that with any longer line lengths the swing of the boat is really there and also at longer lengths the temptation is to get much wider than the bouy line before coming back in, which again is not really the type of turn I want to work on.
Anyway 32/14 seems to be a pretty good compromise as I can quite easily make all the passes (if I do end up in the water guess what - it's at 2,4 - but as I'm working on that its to be expected.).

With all sports/dynamic moves I like to try and build a progression, but how to do it for a slalom turn?
I decided on:
1. Simple passes trying to really feel my position on the ski - forward / back - the place where this is achievable (and most relevant) is in the approach to the turn. This involved a couple of sets where I was really concentrating on feeling my weight on the balls of my feet. I moved the boots around a bit and settled in separating as far as the radar sequence plate would allow - about an inch - which made feeling my position easier (compensated with a forward movement of the front binding).
2. Having established the forward / backward "feel" I then spent a couple of sets working in the left/ right feel - this was interesting as I found that without my middle (knees to hips) being "tight" it was relatively easy to think I was balanced on top of the ski in the turn but actually falling to the inside more than the speed or centrifugal force would allow = either just fall off the side of the ski or hips drag at end of turn / ski snags and another swim. Eventually managed to "feel" that bringing the inside (right for me) hip forward in the approach allowed a general tightening of knees to hips in conjunction with maintenance of the forward / back balance point. This allowed for a controlled stable turn. (Don't think this is counter rotation as I'm not too focused on the upper body.)

3. The next step after a number of easy sets with balanced carved turns was to work out how to influence the radius of the turn. (My preferred technique is high on the boat and early for the bouys, dropping in to each turn. Not a series of linked turns, so the tighter a radius I can make the better).
Ice stopped play as our lake froze over for week or so - melted last week and great conditions so got out yesterday.
air = damn cold, water = colder (approx 41 and 37 F i think)

The video below is my next progression to work on the radius of the turn.

Here I am consciously trying to push the ski out at the apex of the turn whilst staying as upright and on top of it as possible (level head shoulders etc). I am driving through the front leg and really try to feel my inside hip staying up. To reduce the radius of the turn I am trying to force my left hip back with the pressure of this pushing down my right leg. In effect the result is trying to sit on the bouy but with my left cheek. Where it goes wrong is when my right hip starts to drop back on the end of the turn - it's as though my subconscious is trying to finish the turn that little bit more quickly by rotating in. What happens is overturn of the ski / break at the wait / slack / hit etc. etc it's really good to feel this, in effectively slow motion, and to know what is happening as this is what has been bugging me all season. On the video it is really hard to see that I am pushing that right hip forward - I guess that shows room for improvement but importantly I am finishing the turn with my body facing down course (open) and without breaking at the waist., which for me is a big improvement esp. If it becomes predictable.

Anyway whilst looking at this video there are clearly many things to work on, the only one I'm going to keep working on for now (and it's hard not to bring other factors in) is the 2,4 in the hope that I can develop a little muscle memory to take up the line.

Thats it so far, as along as the ice holds off ill keep at it as long as can.
I am more then welcome for any advice / criticism to help me get a predictable onside turn.

RazorRoss3

Comments

  • gregygregy Posts: 2,590 Mega Baller
    Nice skiing really but I think your on-side problem starts from a poor stack coming out of your off-side turn. Also you could stand to keep the handle in a little tighter of the wakes going into your preturn on the on-side. Working on that I think will get you wide and early and the turn will start taking care of itself. See what others think but that's what I'm seeing.
    RazorRoss3Deep11
  • RazorRoss3RazorRoss3 Posts: 1,383 Mega Baller
    edited December 2016
    I don't agree with the idea that it's bad to be wide of the buoy line coming into the turn, when I'm at -28 at 36mph my goal is to be taking the handle outside of the ball, same goal at green and blue as well.

    Speaking to your turn radius concern:
    When you tighten the turn radius your body position has to be that much better because the ski is going to be turning sharper, faster, and hooking up to the boat so if you aren't in a position to be ready for that then you'll get broken.

    Speaking to what @gregy is saying:
    It's really hard to turn how you want if the pull going into the turn wasn't quite right. I think a number of your problems at the ball might be remedied with the slight amount more handle control through the pull and out to the buoy that was mentioned above. Keeping the handle with you with a tight line will naturally set you up on top of your ski in good body position which makes the things you are working on in the turn easier. I think you are working in the right direction on the turns but I agree with @gregy that more emphasis on pulling position and handle control in the pull and cast out to the buoy will make what you are trying to work on in the turn easier to accomplish.

    Nice skiing
    Deep11
  • Chris RossiChris Rossi Posts: 317 Open or Level 9 Skier
    I find most issues for the on side for rff stem from the gates. Id like to see u wider on your gate glide and to get into your stacked position from wider. This will allow you to establish more speed and angle entering the gates and give you more space with speed at buoy 1 so you can finish that turn with more angle and improve your approach to 2.

    Also, what is your current ski set up? Boot location and fin set up?

    RazorRoss3dvskiercragginshredDeep11
  • WishWish Posts: 8,269 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited December 2016
    If your off side is good, clean, consistent and stable, put a washer under the center screw that holds fin block to ski. Screw will go though the washer with washer between ski and block. It would be put on the left side of the block for RFF. It is easy to try, even easier to undo..take it out, and you'll be back to your old fin settings. This may actually do the trick without you having to "do" something different with you. It literally sets the fin up differently for your not so good feeling on side without changing anything to the stable off side. 2mn to put on and then test. 1mn to take off and discard if you wish. I have yet to put one on a ski and not notice a positive diff as well as installing them on others skis and they have remained on. Denali actually makes a set screw spacifically for this asymmetrical adjustment. Brilliant.

    http://tinyurl.com/jgyxhnr
    .



    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    Deep11
  • CamCam Posts: 370 Crazy Baller
    Just for comparison on what @Chris Rossi said, this is the same boat, same speed and line length taken yesterday and I am always being accused of not getting high enough on the boat, unfortunately I fell in at 2 ball on this pass but I am not as adept at 14 metres as @Deep11. Taxi for cam :)

    14.JPG 123.6K
    Deep11
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,425 Mega Baller
    Rossi is right. I was told by Adam Cord to quit judging my gate by my one ball -- lots of different gates might feel good at one ball. However, only getting high on the boat will make 2 ball feel good. If you get high on the boat, my experience suggests many of your onside problems will just seem to disappear.
    Jim Ross
    Camski6jonesDeep11Wish
  • Deep11Deep11 Posts: 221 Solid Baller
    @gregy @razorross3 @wish @razorskier1
    Thank you so much for taking the time to watch the video and offer some insight.
    Interesting - normally as the line gets shorter all my bad habits get worse and are easy to see, you guys have picked them all up at the easy pass!
    I totally agree with the points made about handle control, getting high at the gate shot and getting earlier and wider into the bouy. These are things I have worked on at various times (and clearly need to keep working on) but to be clear however this is an easy pass for me, but even so I have never "really" felt I knew what was making the difference in the turn itself. I am sure it will resonant with some that there are times when you approach the bouy wide and early and seem to have too much time to screw it up. I'm trying to isolate that point.
    What I want to learn is how to use that space to make the most of the turn. I have historically always worked on @gregy point of a good approach letting the turn "take care of itself" - sometimes to good effect and sometimes not. The idea here is not to let it take care of itself but use the off season to learn what it is that makes the difference in the turn - rather than just cold water exercise.
    I know it's an attempt in trying to drill down into the minutiae which may not be possible. It has been really hard to be able to focus just on one aspect which is why I dropped the speed - without much effort I can get in a reasonable position to try out my onside 3/3 every pass (and not cloud my mind with anything else) - I think I'm learning about body position (although it may not be visible on the video ), it will be interesting to see if I can apply it as the speed increases and the line shortens.
    @Chris Rossi - ha ha - the fact I am also learning on a new "pro build" was not wasted on you! As you once pointed out a few years ago on "pro ski coach" "you will always be working on the gate". That comment has eased my gate frustrations on many occasions. Thank you so much for the added insight.
    (Fin settings are "your" recommended standard for 67ski, boots are a little forward at 30 with the max separation on the sequence plate I mentioned before).
    Once again many thanks - when I run out of enthusiasm for this particular "minutiae of technique" I now have a few more things to work on. (Right now I need a technique to help block out all these good ideas and stick to the plan when I'm back on the water!)

    @wish - tried the washer on my Mapple and the actual screw on the Denali ( when I had it) - I couldn't feel the difference and still managed to mess up:) to reiterate from above "it IS me, not the ski " ( and this latest project proves it for me) Perhaps once I have a solid body position I will be able to feel the difference - not going to try it yet though :)
    RazorRoss3
  • RazorRoss3RazorRoss3 Posts: 1,383 Mega Baller
    @Deep11, that point where you are really early and not sure what to do is the exact moment handle control is important. If you've given up your handle at that point then the ski has already been set on it's path and will turn where it will and there really isn't a thing you can do about it. If, at that point, you still have two hands on the handle then you can come into the buoy in a consistent body position and pick the spot you want to turn at. I think if you can get the extra gate height and keep two hands on the handle out to the buoy line it will make a world of difference at the buoy for you.
    bassfooterDeep11Than_Boganphauswirth
  • Deep11Deep11 Posts: 221 Solid Baller
    Hi @rozorross3 - that is a really good point - the first building block in this was to try and "feel" the for/aft position on the ski and the only way to do this has been to keep the handle tight off the second wake and use the connection to position myself on the ski - I have a way to go - as @gregy pointed out - I am letting the handle get away from my core more that it should and end up pulling it back in as I land to keep the connection. The fun bit in this is I am actually feeling these things as conscious connected efforts which is a first. The challenge having picked the point to turn is now to break down the actual turn.
    Thanks for making the point.
  • WishWish Posts: 8,269 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    I would reconsider the one handed gate.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    Than_Boganwtrskior[Deleted User]
  • wtrskiorwtrskior Posts: 704 Crazy Baller
    edited December 2016
    I had a post typed out and saved which suggested you focus solely on your gate. Then @Chris Rossi posted and I realized I was on the right path... I also watched a bunch of your other videos so my comments aren't just focused on the 14m pass.

    I am with @wish in the sense that you need to consider completely rebuilding your gate, although I'm shy to say get rid of the 1 hand only because that can be a big move and 1 hand gates can work for people. I actually went to a 2 hand gate this year after most of my ski career at 1 hand (LFF), and although it is certainly not the only reason I've improved, I went from hardly ever running 32 to almost running 35 every set and a 4.5 buoy increase in pb...

    My starts are far more consistent with a 2 hand gate, but more importantly I think it allows me to be in the proper body alignment which sets me up for a strong 1 and 2 ball.

    You pull out nicely, but you need to stay leaned away longer in your pullout to get higher and wider on the boat. You also have too much weight on the back of the ski in the glide and loose the line a bit (notice the bow in the line?). Stand taller! The reason your ski isn't turning 246 is because there isn't enough of it in the water and your hips are trailing too much throughout the pass.

    Body position is the backbone, and it starts with the gate, especially considering you are RFF and are having trouble with 2-4. Your offside turns are really nice but you're finishing with your hips back. As Rossi said, your gate setup will allow you to carry more speed and obtain better body position and thus direction off the buoy into 2-4.

    I would stay away from focusing on what to do after the edge change into 2-4 because as has already been stated, a proper gate setup and approach to 1 ball will help to sort this out automatically.
  • RazorRoss3RazorRoss3 Posts: 1,383 Mega Baller
    @Deep11, I know you are trying to fix the point of turn but it always seems to me that I don't ski very well when I'm over occupied thinking about my turn. The list I would give you that I think will have a dramatic positive effect on your turn would be:
    1. body position, be sure you are in a solid stacked position from the moment you get out of the water.
    2. gate height, in the good stacked position pull out and get really stupid high on the boat, at your easy passes like your -28 above you can try to be 10+ft outside the buoy line on the gate pullout.
    3. #1 and #2 combined will make the handle control much easier because the pull will be less effort in a good stance so you can keep the handle in control easier.

    After those three things your turn will look dramatically different because you'll be approaching the buoy in a completely new way. In short I think the best way to rebuild your turn is to rebuild your gate and pull as confusing as that may sound.

    As a note about the one handed gate, if you can do it consistently, with good gate height, and a tight line at your turn in then I don't see a problem with it at all. If you find it hard to generate width or if your line is going slack before the turn in then you may want to play with something different but I would never write off a one or two handed gate, I've always felt that was personal preference.
    dislandRazorskier1Deep11
  • WishWish Posts: 8,269 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    One handed gate for a righty is less of an importance and more often then not causes inconsistencies as it becomes another variable to deal with. Lefties benefit because it opens them up keeping hips pointing down course in glide as their hips are naturally turned inward based on foot forward. There are plenty of righties that do well with one handed gate. I do not believe it is even close to a majority.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • Deep11Deep11 Posts: 221 Solid Baller
    Gosh I reckoned this had run its course - thanks for taking the time guys (esp. Looking up old vids - depressing how we think we improve yet the basic issues remain the same !)
    Totally agree with gate at glide and turn in - damn have I been working hard on that all season - seeing that little bow in the line on each pass kills me. Trying really hard for an unloaded pull out coming up slow and tall onto front foot and keeping tension in the rope - I feel it but dont see it on the video. I do think it's better than at the beginning of the season but .....thanks for the reminder.
    Re: one and two handed gates - my stats are the same for both, I'll be sticking with one-handed for the simple reason that my "sometimes" coach will be impossible if I go to two handed.
    Any way looks like my "todo" list is getting longer - cue brain melt and nothing changing :)
    Thanks again,
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