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SN 200 problem

MarcoMarco Posts: 1,430 Crazy Baller
edited April 2010 in News & Other Stuff
<p>
My friend just launched his new 200 for the first time, broke it in per the instructions, but couldn't get enough RPM's afterwards.  The max it would run is 4100, and it barely reaches 36 mph without a skier.  Our lake is at 5400', and they prop'd it down to 15 from 15-1/2. (That seems extreme compared to the 12.5 pitch I run on my malibu, but I don't know anything abou SN props and gear reduction).  The dealer said they are working on a computer upgrade, which makes me think that this isn't the first boat to have an issue.  Has anyone else at altitude experienced the same thing?
</p>
<p>
My friend is extremely frustrated, and it didn't help that the heater stopped working after 5 minutes of use and the knob fell apart in his hands.  He's ready to trade the boat in for a Malibu or mastercraft...<img src="http://ballofspray.com/vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-yell.gif" border="0" alt="Yell" title="Yell" />
</p>
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Comments

  • bajabaja Posts: 249 Baller
    That's unfortunate for what should have been an exciting day. No advice here, only sympathy. Watched a friend use his ski to paddle his new boat up to our dock on it's maiden voyage. We only abused him for a few years. Hopefully this becomes a good story and not a nightmare.
  • BulldogBulldog Posts: 1,031 Crazy Baller
    He should trailer it back to the dealer and demand a different boat, if he is having those kind of issues...... sent it back!!!!!
    Mike Loeffler - "Someone somewhere is having a real problem today...My bad skiing is NOT one of them"
  • MarcoMarco Posts: 1,430 Crazy Baller
    <p>
    That is on the list of options.  The frustrating part is that before he ordered the boat, he asked the dealer if the 340 hp motor would be suffucient to pull 36 mph skiers at 5400' on a 2000' lake.  The dealer talked to the engineers at CC and they said it would have no problem.  I'd say make them install the 400hp motor, but that is a 6K upcharge, not to mention losing use of the boat while it gets replaced.
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
  • pilot76pilot76 Posts: 6
    bought a 2009 196 for this reason... just traded in from a 1997 gt 40 ski nautique tsc1

    love correct craft but 4000+ rpm for 36mph is just too much. My brother who has a 2006 196 does 3600 rpm at 36mph and has a top of 48mph and this is a 700 hr boat.

    I believe the 200 body is just too wide causing too much drag. They should have thought of this during design. Also for most skiers use you actually dont need much more room than a 196 or 206 has to offer, but I know this is a very personal view, what isnt personal however is a newer ski-boat that does too many rpm resulting in less longevity and more fuel consumation, that just isn't progres in my book.

    Also with the 200 with the standard engine you just don't have the top speed to pull a barefooter, while we have ample speed in the 2006 196 for that, and this is on the 330 excalibur, not the 343...

    I hope they will be able to sort it out with a newer, better prop, which is the only option they have i think??

    I really hope they do for you because it is a beautifull looking boat with good fit and finish I believe, really think your heater was just a snag, usually boats, cars, truks, even planes break down early in their lifespan and late.. called MTBF Mean time between failiure. HIghest when new or old...

    K
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,975 Infinite Pandas
    <p>
    At sea level, most boats run 3600 RPM for 36mph. At 5000' the thin air reduces your horsepower by 20%. You will need to increase your RPM by 20% to get the HP needed for 36mph. So your engine needs to turn 4300 RPM to develop the same horsepower! The engine isn't working harder so you aren't wearing out the engine faster or using more gas. Get a new prop! Actually most prop shops can repitch your prop easily.
    </p>
    <p>
    Note these numbers are rough estimates. My airplane loses about 20% power at 5000'. I am assuming linear power curves for the boat engine. I am ignoring the extra friction of higher RPM. But running higher RPMs will safely increase your available power (4300 is well below peak HP and redline). You could get a 20% bigger engine and run it at lower RPM for the same effect.
    </p>
    <p>
    It is a bummer that they didn't guess right on the prop, but there is nothing wrong with the boat engine. The broken heater -  don't give up on the boat for that. The trick wake is another issue...
    </p>
    <p>
    Eric
    </p>
  • DWDW Posts: 2,200 Mega Baller
    <p>
    I would assume that the computer upgrade is actually an altitude compensation or altitude calibration.  The boat is most likely running too rich at altitude, as Eric mentioned, the air is 20% less dense, thus you need 20% less fuel.  With the extra fuel you are both wasting fuel and running inefficiently which is not allowing full power to be realized.  You might check to make sure that is what they are thinking or doing.  You might pull a spark plug and look to see what the mixture looks like.  What type of fuel do you run, you might look in to oxygenated fuels, they would help restore some of the power, but can be hard on some of the parts if the boat sits very long.  Your air cleaner could also be restrictive, a change there could help, I have noticed many boats now run a K&N filter, which is not as free flowing as a good, free flowing spark arrestor.  Also, does that boat have catalytic converters, they tend to be restrictive.
    </p>
    <p>
    Actually, that is one advantage a carburetor tends to have, they are "dumb" so to speak, and only mix the amount of fuel required based on the amount of air that flows through them, not exactly, but closer than a fixed pulse width injector as it does not compensate unless instructed to by the ECM.
    </p>
    <p>
    One big difference between cars and boats in terms of altitude is the relative controlling factor on resistance to forward motion.  In cars, once over 30 mph (+/-) the major contirbutor is aerodynamic drag which is less when the air is less dense, wheras a boat the resistance contributor is the water drag or hydrodynamic drag, which, unfortunately does not really care about altitude.  The newer, heavier boats which now design the hull to get flatter wakes by tuning the hull in such a way that increases drag signifiantly over the older, lighter boats  Increased engine power and more efficient props have been developed to keep speed pretty constant over the last several years, but altitude throwns in another wrinkle.
    </p>
    <p>
    Good luck and I hope the adjustments make the boat satisfactory.
    </p>
  • DekeDeke Posts: 393 Baller
    Guys, I think Marco's problem is a little different than some of the responses suggest. He is saying he has to do 4100 RPM to get to 36 MPH but that is ALSO ALL IT WILL DO. A new prop is not going to be the answer. Seriously, Marco, I'd turn it back over to the dealer and not except it back until your satisfied. You shouldn't be doing the factory's R&D or their quality control for them. That's a real shame after 6 months of anticipation.
  • BulldogBulldog Posts: 1,031 Crazy Baller
    edited April 2010
    Deke is 100 percent right, Marco's friend paid several thousand dollars for the latest and greatest boat and it is not working PERIOD.  If that dealer has any customer service at all he should be hooking them up with a demo boat and making the situation right! If not tell the salesman to poke the 200 you know where... I bet he was all talk when the deal was made where are they now? Marco I am sorry that your friends new boat experence has sucked so far...
    Mike Loeffler - "Someone somewhere is having a real problem today...My bad skiing is NOT one of them"
  • MarcoMarco Posts: 1,430 Crazy Baller
    <p>
    Deke- Thats right.  Also it barely got up to 34 by the time we hit the 55's when I skied behind it yesterday.  The owner has been talking to the dealer, who is guaranteeing they will make it right.  The question is: is the boat just to big and heavy for the motor?  If so there will not be a solution other than upgrading to the 400 hp.
    </p>
    <p>
    The dealer is talking to the guys at PCM, so we'll see what they come back with.  I don't think a prop change will get the 4-6 mph that is needed.  Hopefully it something simple like an altitude calibration as DW suggested.  We'll know more in a couple of days.
    </p>
    <p>
    As far as how it skied, the wake was almost non-existent and butter soft.  One pass we spun at the end and the boat barely bounced when it crossed the wakes.  If we can get the power problem resolved, this will be a sweet boat!
    </p>
  • MarcoMarco Posts: 1,430 Crazy Baller
    <p>
    Bulldog- To be fair, the dealer so far has been very cooperative.  The problem was identified on Friday afternoon, and the PCM guys were in FL and were gone from the office by the time he was able to call them, so nothing much happened over the weekend.  The dealer did talk to my friend several times on Saturday.  We'll see what happens over the next few days.  The boat owner was going to ask the dealer to come to our lake (300+ miles away) to run the diagnostics rather than trailering the boat back over the Rockies.  We'll see if he agrees.
    </p>
    <p>
    I would find it hard to believe that CC didn't test their boat at higer elevations.  Hopefully they did, and this problem can be diagnosed and fixed easily...
    </p>
  • DanEDanE Posts: 922 Crazy Baller
    <p>
    DW,
    </p>
    <p>
    Actually a modern injection system <u>do</u> adjust for altitude. There are three big parameters wich the ECM reads to provide the right pulses for the injectors.
    </p>
    <p>
    MAP sensor (manifold absolute pressure), throttle sensor, and rpm´s together make it possible for the ECM to read the mass of oxygen entering the engine.
    </p>
    <p>
    Other parameters are present to fine adjust, like engine temp, intake air temp and so on,some systems even has an air mass sensor but the main thing is that the system is very well capable of adjusting for altitude so the mixture should not be at fault.
    </p>
    <p>
    However, and this is something You can´t do anything about, You <u>will</u> lose power at altitude.Because the air pressure is lower, less air mass is going to enter the engine and the the injection system will adjust accordingly with less fuel injected to keep the mixture right= less power, or You could say You need to push the throttle further to achieve same power as You´re used to at sea level.
    </p>
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,975 Infinite Pandas
    <p>
    I'd be surprised if the ECM does not have altitude compensation built in. A defective air filter is possible. My old airplane had more power on the lower 87 octane cargas than the 100 octane avgas - fill with regular instead of super. A bad plug or wire (or ECM or sensor) could cut the power output. <strike>Clean the algae off the bottom of the boat</strike>. These are small unlikely problems. A new prop is very likely to solve the problem.
    </p>
    <p>
    My old American Skier was getting really tired. It would not pull 36 any more. So I bought a new Magnum Skier. It was a Utah high altitude boat. I am below sea level. So I swapped props from the American Skier to the Magnum. The strong new engine on the Magnum was great with the American Skier prop. The American Skier turned into a strong new boat - easily pulling 36! One of my members used it for several years after that (eventually the engine died totally - but I stupidly overheated it).
    </p>
    <p>
    The 200 may be big and heavy with a high drag hull design, but 340HP is a huge engine. If you are on the wrong side of the power curve, you can't get into any of the available HP. My American Skier prop was a 14 pitch prop. The altitude Magnum prop was a 12 pitch prop. Repitching from 15-1/2 to 15 is not much adjustment for your extreme altitude. Try an agressive pitch change (14 or 14-1/2).
    </p>
    <p>
    Maybe then you will find that the boat is a horrible design and the engine is defective. More realistically, you are the high altitude test bed. Have fun with it all!
    </p>
    <p>
    Eric
    </p>
  • DWDW Posts: 2,200 Mega Baller
    <p>
    Did not mean to give the impression that there is no, or the ECM doesn't have, altitude compensation as it should.  I was just commneting on that based on the info given and the problem described as something to verify or ensure is functioning correctly or that the correct software is enabled.
    </p>
    <p>
    Marco, the 12.5" pitch altitude prop on the Malibu is only 1/2" pitch difference from the sea level props which are 13".  So the 1/2" pitch change is not too far off, and given it's a 15, the boat certainly has a gear reduction trans.
    </p>
  • MarcoMarco Posts: 1,430 Crazy Baller
    <p>
    DW- Yes, the boat does have gear reduction.  The dealer is hinting at a prop change solution, but won't propping down further give more RPM's but not much more top end speed, which is what is missing? 
    </p>
    <p>
    Being a new boat, (less than 1/2 hr on it at delivery), we discounted plugged filters, air or fuel.  Could a weak fuel pump be a possibility?
    </p>
    <p>
    Eric- it does appear we are the "high altitude test bed".  I do know of  200 promo that will be showing up at a lake a few hours away from ours that is 600' higher in elevation.  It won't be there for 3 more weeks, but if we don't have an answer by then, the performance of that boat will tell us a lot...
    </p>
  • ForrestGumpForrestGump Posts: 6,117
    The MEFI ecm does not have "altitude correction software" that can be enabled or disabled, per se. It uses a MAP sensor on "key on" to set a baseline for atmospheric pressure. From there it references a fueling table based on pressure vs rpm to find an injector pulsewidth. It then applies a mutiplier based on the air temp. The Exc 343 and 330 with the MEFI have had years of testing so I'm guessing it's not an issue of an incorrect calibration. There are plenty of boats in high altitudes running those same engines. Anything is possible I guess. If it's not incorrecty propped, I would suspect a faulty MAP sensor or knock sensor. I have had faulty MAP sensors on fuel injected race car engines I tune right out of the box, so it's not unheard of. 
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • pilot76pilot76 Posts: 6
    ELEESKI,

    At sea level, most boats run 3600 RPM for 36mph. At 5000' the thin air reduces your horsepower by 20%. You will need to increase your RPM by 20% to get the HP needed for 36mph. So your engine needs to turn 4300 RPM to develop the same horsepower! The engine isn't working harder so you aren't wearing out the engine faster or using more gas. Get a new prop! Actually most prop shops can repitch your prop easily.

    Please take no offence eleeski, but I believe you are wromg here, a 737 captain myself, I agree with you that from a thermal point of view the engine isnt really working harder. But frictional wise it definately is. I do not know what excalibur max continuous rpms are, but on my gt-40 it was only 4200rpm, wich agreed was an engine wich was less tuned for the higher end rpm and had more torque at lower end compared to the chevy engine, but running the boat constantly at 4300 rpm compared to another boat doing the same at 3600-3800 rpm wil reduce longevity, and it should use more fuel also, but have to go back to my books for this, piston engines theory was a long time ago ;)
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,975 Infinite Pandas
    <p>
    Pilot, you are right about the friction burning extra gas. Every hypermiler will run as low a gear as possible to maximize mileage. But skiing is not an economy activity (especially with a $$new boat). And the friction will not add the full 20% to the fuel burn or engine wear.
    </p>
    <p>
    Motorcycle engines redline at 10,000+ rpm, my Cessna 210 limits at 2800 rpm. Engines have design limits and absolute rpm numbers are irrelevant - it is the engine specific rpms that matter. For the PCM 5.7 engine (Crusader is what I found specs for) the max rpm is 5200 and max power (330HP) is at 5000 rpm. They specify a cruise range of idle to 4000 rpm but this range is not a limit (and pulling slalom is not a cruise activity). 4300 rpm is well within the design limits of the engine. The pull can be made to be equivalent to a sea level pull.
    </p>
    <p>
    High altitude is a more stressful situation for the engine so sacrificing better power, fuel economy and engine life is the price you pay for the beautiful mountain vistas and trees. Of course those rains (and snows) that fill your lakes are something we don't get in sea level San Diego. Maybe that's why we have the most expensive water in the US. The costs may even out...
    </p>
    <p>
    Eric
    </p>
  • MarcoMarco Posts: 1,430 Crazy Baller
    <p>
    Good news back from CC!  This is all second hand, but as it turns out, the software that was loaded into the 200's that were built in the early stages of production were for the 196.  Later on they changed the software to coincide with the higer RPM needs of the 200.  I don't know any of the specifices, but the programming of ZO came into play as well.
    </p>
    <p>
    The fix is a software upgrade, and they are also talking about propping down to a 12-1/4 x 14-1/4.
    </p>
    <p>
    As it turns out, this is the first 200 run at altitude, so the problem with the older software hadn't arisen previously.  CC already has the answer.  Hats off to them for being on top of it. 
    </p>
  • Andy was giving joy rides on lake #2 at this level in August '09: Calgary — Elevation: 1,048 M (3,438 FT). i was real interested in the 200.

    When the placed cleared out i saw a bit of a drag race going on 200 vs 196. the 196 beat the 200 but not by a huge margin. the 200 came out of the water flat and is just gorgeous on plane. the 196 reminded me of the old SN2001 when side by side.
  • ForrestGumpForrestGump Posts: 6,117
    <p>
    If I recall correctly, they were testing the 200 in Denver last year. Maybe this one is the first customer boat at altitude, but it's not the first 200 run at altitude. Glad they've got a fix coming, though.
    </p>
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • Alberto SoaresAlberto Soares Posts: 322 Solid Baller
    Hi Marco, is the problem fixed? Thank you!
  • MAD11MAD11 Posts: 578 Crazy Baller
    <p>
     
    </p>
    <p>
    Seems like more issues with the 200. Some locals brand new 200 is sitting at the dealership, but they can't take delivery due to a rudder recall. The boat left the factory within the last 10 days so this must be a new one. Hope they get this fixed quickly.
    </p>
  • ForrestGumpForrestGump Posts: 6,117
    <p>
    Marc, there's a big recall on rudder ports at CC right now. It effects some of the wakeboard boats, like the 210, too.  Lot of brand new boats coming back to the dealerships over the next month. It was just identified in the last week and the rudder port manufacturer is working on a fix. 
    </p>
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • JDMJDM Posts: 35 Baller
    Friend of Marco's here and familiar with the boat issue and we are aware of the rudder issue and a fix is suposed to be delivered with a new rudder box installation when they recalibrate.  Hopefully this weekend. 
  • MarcoMarco Posts: 1,430 Crazy Baller
    <p>
    Alberto- As JDM mentiones above, the recalibration is set to happen this weekend.  The prop change was a large improvement, and hopefully the recalibration will complete the equation.  Will keep you posted.
    </p>
    <p>
     Shane- From what I understand from second hand information, CC did some higher altitue testing, and pulled an event in Mexico City, but used the 400 hp block, and the problems were not an issue with the larger motor.  I believe this is the first 340 horse motor tested at altitude.
    </p>
  • DekeDeke Posts: 393 Baller
    I love my '99 RLx...   <img src="http://ballofspray.com/vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-smile.gif" border="0" alt="Smile" title="Smile" />
  • Old MS AccoutOld MS Accout Posts: 2,114 Baller
    Thats 3 seconds of my life I will never get back.
  • DekeDeke Posts: 393 Baller
    MS, in all seriousness this issue is bad. The re-calibration should help and the prop is helping, but the results might only be marginal at best. I don't believe the owner of that boat would have ordered it with the smaller power plant if he new what he knows now. CC is doing all they can to rectify the situation as it stands but the bottom line is they sold him the wrong boat.

    As for the 3 seconds... Sorry.

    Deke
  • Old MS AccoutOld MS Accout Posts: 2,114 Baller
    I am a very Happy former CC promo guy. Always wait for the second year of any new boat from any boat maker.  
  • DekeDeke Posts: 393 Baller
    Marco, this is the weekend. What's up?
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