Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

______________
12" White Stickers
______________
BallOfSpray $5 Donation
______________
BallOfSpray $10 Donation

Where do you stand?

Deep11Deep11 Posts: 221 Solid Baller
When teaching / coaching slalom there is, understandably, a universal problem of weight too far back - to some degree its a "right of passage ". There are many many threads on here about how to transition out of this, yet for many it remains the basic problem.
Having taken some snowboard coaching recently I was struck by some similarities (in balance) the focus of this particular coach was "feeling" where the pressure is in your feet. Once established you can then move the pressure around to effect the changes you want.
There is a lot less going on with snowboarding but there is a good point here. Slalom is a very athletic excercise yet most amateur skiers ski with flat feet - driving from the heals (and yet trying to get weight forward) . In any board / athletic sport the "ready position " is on the balls of the feet - shouldnt our advice on body position be aimed at achieving the correct foot pressure. Ideally when a skier is trying different "key thoughts" a very quick mental check would be to see if the movement they are doing results in the required foot pressure. After all any movement is only relevant in the effect it has on the ski?
I don't think this has any relevance with RTP heel lifting / double boots etc as it's very easy to stand with flat feet yet move the pressure around.
I know there is a GUT of slalom appearing - is this a part of it?
Just a thought
Than_BoganjhughesMISkierBruce_Butterfield6ballsWishToddLsunvalleylawpumpinpete

Comments

  • jhughesjhughes Posts: 1,044 Mega Baller
    This is an epidemic issue in slalom, for sure.
    Deep11
  • GloersenGloersen Posts: 1,015 Mega Baller
    @Wish - spot on.
    Deep11
  • sunvalleylawsunvalleylaw Posts: 1,259 Mega Baller
    edited March 2017
    @Deep11 , The same or similar concepts also appear in snow skiing. But surprisingly, though I coach snow skiing and work with those concepts all the time. I have spent too little time thinking about and understanding where the pressure is one my feet on a slalom ski, other than to try to get more pressure up on the front foot, and more ski in the water. However, as I think about it, I am afraid that has been for me, over the course of my skiing history, an effort to overcome my tendency to push the ski around with my back foot, particularly at the end of the turn, rather than be more patient and allow the ski to come around so I have more pressure on the front foot. I am afraid I have not narrowed it down so much as to where on that front foot. So, there has been a bit of a foot to foot thing going on in my skiing that needs to be cleaned up. Now I can't wait to get out on the water and change that. Start with pressure more on the ball of the front foot, and move to maintain that, rather than a rock back to the rear of the front foot even, much less the rear foot. @Wish , thanks for that. That helps me think about it and visualize it.
    Deep11pumpinpete
  • WishWish Posts: 8,049 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Another observation I have had over the past year is the greater feeling of athleticism being on the ball(s) of my feet. More finesse and less grunting my way down the course. It puts us, as we ski, on a more supportive, wider portion of the ski instantly creating less drag. Less drag, more speed, more speed less loads. Less loads more skier longevity as we age.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    Deep11BlueSki
  • sunvalleylawsunvalleylaw Posts: 1,259 Mega Baller
    edited March 2017
    The way we speak of it in coaching snow skiing is managing the relationship of the center of mass (COM) to the base of support (BOS). Generally, you want to be athletically stacked over a natural and functional base of support, ready to move. As in any athletic endeavor. So, generally over the balls of the feet, and moving so as to maintain that relationship and not let the COM get behind the heels, or really even on the heels other than in certain advanced tactical situations based on terrain and the desired turn.

    I think my understanding of slalom position has been one of more of a static position. That is not going to work for more serious advancement. I need to read some more of the GUT stuff and see how i can use my snow understanding to understand how and when to move the COM in the direction of the new turn (but being patient and allowing the ski to work) so as not to get back near the completion of the turn, requiring a recovery move.

    @Wish that movement will help me maintain that feeling of athleticism and efficiency (leverage) to get the less drag, less load, more speed you speak of.
    Deep11
  • WishWish Posts: 8,049 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @sunvalleylaw this is the article you should read.

    https://tinyurl.com/Denali-GUT-103
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    Deep11
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,640 Mega Baller
    @Triplett Having worked on this with you and the Adams just a few months ago, your explanation makes sense to me! But the other confounding thing about this is that it's somewhat opposite to what a lot of us learned "back in the day." I was very jealous of (e.g.) Ashley who is learning it right to begin with!!
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    sunvalleylawDeep11
  • MISkierMISkier Posts: 2,858 Mega Baller
    edited March 2017
    @Triplett, that made a lot of sense to me and it was very similar to what Jodi Fisher told me last April. He even had me floating with my ski straight up and belly button pointing in alignment with the tip of the ski. He said we should constantly practice alignment, even between passes.

    He also said to keep this same alignment and stay forward on the ski after the exit gates and leading into your set down. Don't crank back on the tail of the ski or exhibit poor body position while finishing that part of the pass. It all goes to muscle memory. Don't have your muscles remembering the wrong things.
    The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears.
    ScottScottDeep11ski6jones
  • TriplettTriplett Posts: 209 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @MISkier exactly where I learned it from. This is something I do every time I get up. I move into the right position before the gates. Glad it made sense.
    Brent Triplett - Michigan
    MISkier
  • wtrskiorwtrskior Posts: 704 Crazy Baller
    @Triplett @MISkier ditto. One of the biggest eye openers for me in this sport as well, big props to Jodi!
    MISkier
  • Deep11Deep11 Posts: 221 Solid Baller
    @triplett I agree "back hip forward" is a good way of moving COM over front foot. For others it's - "straighten back leg" or " counter rotate" or "push the handle down the bouy line with your inside hip".
    My point was about where, once you are on the front foot do you want the pressure to be. ? Logic and basic athleticism says it should be in the pad just behind your big toe and 1st toe. I would also suggest that it should stay there right through the tune until the hook up at which point the pressure will drop back a bit to be shared between front and back foot for max load.
    As soon as you exit second wake you should be searching for the same pressure point in the front foot.
    @skjay talks about "feeling" where the water is breaking and the balance point in the approach to the bouy - not sure that's possible with flat feet?
  • WishWish Posts: 8,049 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @Deep11 I would agree with those assertions. A year ago I would have scratched my head and said that the pressure feedback loop seems silly. I count on it now.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    Deep11
  • TriplettTriplett Posts: 209 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @Deep11 Knowing where you are at on the ski is very important. I don't use pressure feed back much, but I use more of how the ski feels underneath me. If I start to feel like I am creeping forward faster than I would like I am probably overloading the tip of the ski. If I feel narrow and fast I am probably back. In general, I think you are correct, the pressure needs be in the ball of your foot or closer to the toes. Once you are loaded behind the boat I would argue this pressure doesn't change much. You will use the back leg more, but you still need to be moving into the first wake.
    Brent Triplett - Michigan
    Deep11
  • bishop8950bishop8950 Posts: 1,177 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    I think about being over my ski all the time. Agree before the gates. As soon as I get up.

    Imagine if our skis were powered and we were running the course without a boat and rope. How would you stand? More like a surf board, balanced all the time or you would fall. I think the more you are over your ski the more control you have over your movement. If we are super back in a deep tug of war with the boat how much can you control your movement behind the boat? If you are balanced you have more options. I hate when I get deep and feel locked out and can't move through the wakes.

    I think most people are too far back because it feels safe and we can deal with load more without feeling like we are going to crash. We think that's good until we learn being over your feet is better. Thanks @matthewbrown for enlightening me years ago. When I am skiing my best a feel like I am slighly in front of my feet. Not OTF forward but just past neutral. Then I can move through the edge change. I once heard Nate say "if I don't feel like I might go out the front through the gates at 43 I am not getting anywhere". Not saying any of us should try to get to that spot right away but it makes you think.

    I personally find it easier to keep my body over my feet than to pay attention to the weight in each foot.
    Deep11Than_BoganBruce_ButterfieldWish
  • WishWish Posts: 8,049 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    I think most people are too far back because it feels safe and we can deal with load more without feeling like we are going to crash.

    @bishop8950 well said. I'm still getting used to it. What makes it possible is less drag when we are on the part of the ski that has more support..under the front boot. With less drag, the ski stays with you so OTF is less likely then most think. Including myself.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    bishop8950
  • GloersenGloersen Posts: 1,015 Mega Baller
    just wanna stand like this...
    and have a 1/3/5 like this...
    ...AND...never do the walk of shame in Leida
    talk about standing tall though in the glide...


    WishToddA
  • ForrestGumpForrestGump Posts: 6,108
    One of the things I've learned in cycling is that the more you're on the balls of your feet, the more your hips are engaged, and the more you drive the core mass forward.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

    sunvalleylawWish
Sign In or Register to comment.