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Do you trun your ski 90 degrees to the boat path?

WishWish Posts: 8,269 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
edited April 2017 in Technique & Theory
I think a lot of skiers feel the need to do this to some degree at just about every line length. Why not...we see the pros do it all the time. But should we? Open discussion to get our brains back in technique mode.


>>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
ToddA

Comments

  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,586 Administrator
    Direction the ski is pointing <> direction the ski is travelling.

    I would guess the skier in the image above has just dug big a hole.

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  • WishWish Posts: 8,269 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited April 2017
    That is a pro skier pictured. Hole..maybe. But it may be that mental image and the feeling that we need to do this to run short(er) lines that may be a myth?
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,701 Mega Baller
    Arms are bent in the pic, will it still be close to 90 degree angle when the arms go straight and the load hits? Me thinks not.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
    Andre
  • aupatkingaupatking Posts: 1,628 Mega Baller
    What angle should the ski be pointed? What angle should it be pointed when at center line? We are constantly sliding sideways, so what is our slip rate (deflection rate?) at a particular angle? Of course our slip increases as our angle increases, past an optimal, so, what is the optimal?
    Maybe that would be nice to feel "ok, my angle is good enough", but it feels really good when it feels like 90!
    6balls
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,913 Mega Baller
    My not-very-informed opinion:
    90 degrees to the boat path is OK. (Picture shows this.)
    90 degrees to the rope angle is BAD. (In picture, that angle is about 45 degrees.)

    So out there at the buoy, having the ski point straight across is just fine, so long as it maintains about the same angle with the rope as the rope swings across. That means the angle relative to the boat path will rapidly decline in the next few moments after the above picture.

    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    jcampWishZman
  • Stevie BoyStevie Boy Posts: 2,210 ★★★★Quad Panda Award Recipient ★★★★
    Surely, to maintain the right speed throughout the slalom course and keep it smooth, you could make a case that some skiers take too much angle, some skiers may be able to cope with more angle than others, if you cannot deal with it, you might be better taking less angle.
    I think Shnitz was coaching co-ordinate sking at one point which was quite effective, I do not know what the limits were with that, the other thing he use to proclaim was, that as long as you arrived a boats length in front of the bouy, it was enough for the ski to swing out and back in to complete the turn.

    Addicted To Carbon Fibre

  • ski6jonesski6jones Posts: 1,140 Mega Baller
    I would say it's too much angle if you can't ski away in good stacked position. If you can't maintain position and ski away then it's too much angle. Spotting the next ball across coarse as I finish the turn helps keep me from taking more angle than I can manage. I just forget to use that technique more often than not.
    Carl Addington, Lakes of Katy, Texas
    Wish
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 3,171 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Bear in mind that the skier is doing what the photographer has requested: turn the crap out of it. That may not be a typical turn; it could just be the turn the photographer liked best from the shoot.
    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
    jcamp
  • WishWish Posts: 8,269 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    No ...typical turn for that skier.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    Triplett
  • skinutskinut Posts: 435 Solid Baller
    Nope, 90* = handle pop or herniated disks, at least for my mortal body.
  • JackQJackQ Posts: 412 Open or Level 9 Skier
    That photo must be at a very long line, as he is not very high up on the boat. The answer to the question is it depends, you want as much angle as you can comfortably take. Too much and your toast, too little you are giving up space. I would argue that at 39, you may be greater than 90, at the intial turn, when high on the boat.
  • bishop8950bishop8950 Posts: 1,221 Open or Level 9 Skier
    Such a sic photo, credit @MarcusBrown

    I assume that is JT, who can destroy 1/3/5 as the skier is here. May not translate to us mortals.

    Do we want as much angle as possible? I do as long as I am moving in behind the boat and have some speed to invest before the line is tight.
  • WishWish Posts: 8,269 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @bishop8950 wins on IDing skier and photographer ( @JackQ thinkn very short line for JT ).
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    bishop8950
  • ozskiozski Posts: 1,715
    Ok I don't think crossing the wake at right angles to the boat path (side slide) is anything like the most efficient path for a shortline skier, maybe I'm missing something but when you go past a certain point you would be highly inefficient.
    'Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.'' 2021 MC As soon as it lands Ski - KD Platinum

    Wish
  • Deep11Deep11 Posts: 221 Solid Baller
    Presumably how you have your ski set up will also have a bearing - if its set more to slide at the end of the turn then getting more angle earlier may be good as it would effectively allow you to get "set" in your stack position earlier.
    Clearly this is an "extreme" there are videos of Jeff Rogers and Regina out there showing the other extreme where the ski points at the boat at the end of the turn only to be on the correct trajectory a microsecond later. Both look like they require fairly major correction strength.
    Another question might be - given we are none of us perfect - if you were going got err in favor of one extreme - which way should it be?
  • DanEDanE Posts: 930 Crazy Baller
    edited April 2017
    How many of you can actually guage how much angle you point the ski towards the wake with at hookup?!
    Personally, I feel that the closer I can get to the picture above (I do realize I'm nowhere that level) with a tight line and then strive to move towards the first wake with as much angle I can take the easier it will be to hold and stay stacked into the edge change.
    Deliberately trying to limit angle only makes for a poor wake crossing with unnecessary load, especially on the rear foot.
  • WishWish Posts: 8,269 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @DanE your last sentence...how?
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • DanEDanE Posts: 930 Crazy Baller
    edited April 2017
    @Wish Imagine what happens next for JT in the above picture when he moves his hip and handle together, he will be stacked with weight evenly distributed on both feet with a bias towards the front foot keeping his cm moving in the direction of travel.
    Now imagine the situation he would be in the exact same picture with his ski pointing more downcourse in relation to centerline, say at a 45 degree angle.
    He would have no choice but to load the rear foot when the rope comes tight otherwise an otf is bound to happen.
    When you see pros come out of the turn sometimes rearfoot heavy and then reestablish their angle to get a good wake crossing I highly doubt things are going 100% according to plan.
    If you hit centerline with poor speed you will have more work to to if you want to hold a decent angle across.
  • bigtex2011bigtex2011 Posts: 581 Crazy Baller
    I think you take as much angle as you need to take. At shortline for me, if I rip a huge onside turn I end up taking load too early and getting pulled to the inside as I move to the otherside.
    wtrskiorbishop8950
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,859 Mega Baller
    Anyone remember "Coordinates" - the idea that too much of a good thing is bad - the perfect ski path (not too early not too late)? My $0.02 - there is no such thing as too early until it creates another problem that the skier can't manage.

    Truths:
    • Ski angle <> Ski path
    • Ski angle will be sharper than ski path when leveraging against the boat's path aggressively
    • Ski angle / Speed (which creates load) all get the skier to the other side sooner (good thing)
    • More of a good thing is always better until it becomes too much to manage
    • When the skier can't manage it, something else suffers (alignment & efficiency, deceleration, subsequent turn, technique, etc.).
    Elite, strong skiers can manage more load, more angle, and more speed than I. So, their level of load/angle/speed is "too much" for me. However, as I learn to manage these things more effectively, I can employ "more" of them to achieve better results.
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,859 Mega Baller
    @DanE - I focus on finishing the turn - with the COM forward (leading) with the ski tip and then hip moving under the handle before reaching/grabbing/loading. If I do this, then the ski has achieved the angle it needs while my alignment has also hit the mark. The result is the ability to "stay stacked" and connected through the edge change.
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
    Zman
  • DanEDanE Posts: 930 Crazy Baller
    edited April 2017
    @ToddL Sounds like a plan, bet you have no idea what angle your ski has in relation to centerline at that point.
    Not that I think it matters much.
    I focus on about the same keys, maybe in a different wording but generally the same.
    Key for me is to keep turning and build angle for as long as I'm allowed before the rope goes tight. As long as I keep cm moving forward I'm not gonna dig a hole and the wake crossing will feel easy.
    What angle I actually end up with really has more to do with what happened at the previous wake crossing than the turn itself.
  • liquid dliquid d Posts: 1,333 Mega Baller
    When you're late, you do...hook in and hang on!
  • santangelosantangelo Posts: 192 Solid Baller
    Assuming zero down course sliding, physics says this isn't humanly possible with a tight line. I agree with @SkiJay .

    Wouldn't you want to come out of the turn with the exact angle that you want to go across the wakes? Isn't that the most efficient? And if you don't set the correct angle, I think you're better off coming out of the turn slightly under turning versus over turning.
    Wishbkreisskihart
  • DragoDrago Posts: 1,620 Mega Baller
    @santangelo Why would you assume no downcourse sliding?
    SR SL Judge & Driver (“a driver who is super late on the wheel and is out of sync”)
  • santangelosantangelo Posts: 192 Solid Baller
    @Drago , because it's possible to slide down course with the ski 90 degrees to the boat and not move laterally/cross course. Honestly, I put the 'assuming' part in there so someone wouldn't reference side sliding.

    I'm not saying the ski doesn't slide down course in slalom, I'm just saying it's not controllable near 90 degrees when the goal is to move cross course.

    In my experiences skiing, I've moved towards the idea that there's an ideal line/angle for all skiers, although they may not be the same for each of us. And if I don't set the angle correct out of the turn, I'd much rather under turn than over turn at the shorter line lengths.

    I can ski with a lot of angle out of the buoy, but I tend to ski better with somewhat less angle but more body control, so my working theory is technique and control over excessive angle.
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