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Question: Movement patterns, end of turn

sunvalleylawsunvalleylaw Posts: 1,259 Mega Baller
edited April 2017 in Technique & Theory
I am interested in how people approach finishing the turn in terms of movement. I suppose the whole turn would be relevant, but am focused on the finish in my head. I am thinking about how the center of mass (core, main weight, etc.) is relating to the base of support (feet on the ski), and how to stay in a good, stacked position. Seems to me some sort of movement of the center of mass needs to happen, or one would tend to get back. I know I do. Particularly on my on side. But rather than try and make a specific diagnosis of what I am doing (there is a thread here somewhere with a video of me where someone correctly points this out), I am interested in how others view this.

Comments

  • ozskiozski Posts: 1,715
    Maybe old school but I focus on rotating my outside hip back to the handle, nothing more complex than that.
    'Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.'' 2021 MC As soon as it lands Ski - KD Platinum

    sunvalleylawTexas6wtrskior
  • sunvalleylawsunvalleylaw Posts: 1,259 Mega Baller
    @ozski Simple is good. I like that. Anyone else?
  • sunvalleylawsunvalleylaw Posts: 1,259 Mega Baller
    edited April 2017
    @Luzz That is exactly what I am getting at. I have traditionally stayed tall, but am thinking about changing that, as I get more weight on the front foot and improve the efficiency of my stack. The end of the turn in snow skiing is a good place to end up back if you don't move in the direction of the new turn with your center of mass. I was figuring the same must be true of modern waterskiing. But HOW to make that move is escaping me. And yes, it is an opportunity to prepare for wake crossing with good leverage, and it seems if one does not move forward in some way while completing the turn, one will end up back, and have to recover. It happens on my onside to me, more than my offside. For some reason. I tend to end up on my back foot, and pushing the tail around. To stay over the front foot, something else has to happen.

    It may be that I need to not worry so much about changing how tall I stand, but where I stand, and from there learn how to finish more efficiently. Maybe simply, with patience and the outer hip. But I would like to be able some day to use more of what I know about snow skiing in my water skiing. (but that could open up a whole other discussion). For now I just want to hear how people here approach this. Listen, rather than speak, for once.
  • lazznlazzn Posts: 50 Baller
    I feel like this begs the question of how your edge change affects your relative weight position going into the turn and how this shifts while turning. The snow skiing reference reminds me of how the speed of a snow ski edge change affects your position, if you really ram your edges over you can end up way back because of how the skis behave on 0 edges, whereas a smoother transition from 2 edges to 4 to 2 keeps you relatively the same, how does this apply on a water ski? Wouldn't you end up more forward in a smooth edge change because of increased surface area, thereby making an aggressive edge change easier to maintain proper stacked position on?
    Wisconsin Waterski Team
    sunvalleylaw
  • sunvalleylawsunvalleylaw Posts: 1,259 Mega Baller
    edited April 2017
    @lazzn Well, it could end up being off topic, but one of the things I am working on in my snow skiing is a moment of feeling the bases flat on the snow, rather than rolling too abruptly from edge to edge. It tends to clean up the first half of my turn, which sets me up to move more smoothly and in a more disciplined, proactive way, toward the new turn in the second half of the turn. Much smoother on the edges. Much stronger. And it comes from using the tips of my skis more and sooner, (with a ski to ski transfer as well, to the new outside ski), but more smoothly.

    So I know this about my snow skiing, (I am a more proficient snow skier than water skier) and interested in learning how the experts approach completion of the turn in water skiing. And yes, I am sure it relates to things that happen earlier in the turn. But a move still has to happen.

    But here I am talking too much, and about the wrong kind of skiing. Ok, listening now.
    lazzn
  • sunvalleylawsunvalleylaw Posts: 1,259 Mega Baller
    I would really be interested in others' thoughts on this, if they have any. so, "Bump".
  • Stevie BoyStevie Boy Posts: 2,210 ★★★★Quad Panda Award Recipient ★★★★
    I think when it comes to the turn, it,s all about making sure you are up on top of the ski, feeling that front foot is a must for me, sounds simple but there are other things which have to happen to allow you to get on top of the ski, it is not a given

    Addicted To Carbon Fibre

  • sunvalleylawsunvalleylaw Posts: 1,259 Mega Baller
    edited April 2017
    I just found the Rossi Power Triangle article again, and it helps me a bit here with what I am trying to figure out. At least part of the way. Rossi Power Triangle
  • gsm_petergsm_peter Posts: 810 Crazy Baller
    My 2 cents as a 15off.
    One detail that help me a lot is when I rotate my handle -palm up.
    I then usually complete the turn well prepared for the next phase.
    Life is too short not to enjoy every day!
  • ozskiozski Posts: 1,715
    edited April 2017
    At each line length there is a "window" of time when a skier is high enough on the boat to rotate easily. If your caught skiing narrow and late the boat equipped with ZO and 400+ HP will quickly take the line and make the completion of the turn a lot more difficult. If you want to finish the turn well you need to be "with" the boat and give yourself adequate time at the ball and this all starts well before you get there - with angle and space. So its not just about what you do its also about where you are in relation to the boat and the course.
    'Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.'' 2021 MC As soon as it lands Ski - KD Platinum

    sunvalleylaw
  • bigtex2011bigtex2011 Posts: 581 Crazy Baller
    I try to think about rising out of of my pull and riding the line outbound. For me it is important not to fully give up the line pressure moving out so into to 1 ball. I feel it thru my right arm and shoulder. In the past, I have used my left arm but I seemed to get rolled back in too early at 38. (this is probably just me). As I approach the apex of the turn I start moving my weight toward the next buoy. I explain this to my Boys 2 son by using a bike or skateboard analogy. On a skateboard or bike you have to transfer you weight to the inside to turn. At slalom it is much the same to me.

    Thanks I hope this helps
    ski6jonessunvalleylaw
  • sunvalleylawsunvalleylaw Posts: 1,259 Mega Baller
    Thanks guys. @ozski , that is insightful and a good point. And one I need to work on this year.

    @bigtex2011 , that makes great sense and corresponds with my experience on a skateboard, mountain bike, and snow skis. And nordic skis for that matter. On skate skis, you need to transfer weight and direct center of mass in a way to promote glide on the new ski on the snow. In alpine snow skiing (and nordic skate), it is especially important that the "rising" not be too straight up and more in the direction of the turn (inside it but also related to the path of the ski). This is all making more sense to me now.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,586 Administrator
    @sunvalleylaw I try to be centered and tall approaching the ball and then steer the ski with my lower body. Ideally if I am stacked and centered before the ball I want to maintain that through apex and keep going. My COM moves but I actually try to minimize it or try not to overplay that move.

    See how little CP actually moves? He just stays centered. My skiing looks nothing like this but this is how I want to ski.

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  • sunvalleylawsunvalleylaw Posts: 1,259 Mega Baller
    Thanks @Horton . That makes sense to keep movement minimal. I was just thinking that to maintain a centered, stacked position, some movement might be necessary to not get back. Separating upper and lower body concepts makes sense. I will watch that vid more to get more of an idea. It seems like perhaps the hips are closing more than the shoulders but I want to be careful about thinking too much about that. When I can get out on the water in Boise/Nampa in a few weeks, I am booking some coaching. I will let Mr. Winter determine my priorities and work on what he thinks is best.

    I think the reason I spend a lot of time thinking about this is because I do not get enough water time, and I have always used visualization. So I want to refine how I envision this. Mebbe the best way is to watch vid of guys like Parrish and Winter and visualize that, photoshopping me in there in my mind. LOL!
  • GarnGarn Posts: 568 Crazy Baller
    That backward video of Parrish is freaky!
  • Deep11Deep11 Posts: 221 Solid Baller
    @sunvalleylaw interesting idea of working on the end of the turn. I have tried this and I'm not sure that it is actually possible as you would like it to be - too much needs to happen before you get there.
    If you really want to work on the finish of the turn you need to decide what that should look like for you and then remove as many variables as possible, For me the end of the turn is about 4-6ft before the white water - at this point I want to be balanced in the middle of the ski, as tall as possible with my upper body as high up off the water as possible. I will have already collected the handle and the line will be tight , power triangle engaged, ready to accelerate. - please be assured that this very rarely happens but it is what I am aiming for.
    To know when you have got it right you need to be able to "feel" what it's like to get right - at least once :)
    I would recommend that you get away from the course and free ski - look at seths "whips" the point at which he accelerates is the end of the turn.
    CP s video is great and I had the pleasure of skiing with him and "Arnold" last month. It was windy so i took a free-ski set, with CP coaching, working on just this. Really "feeling" the balance into and through the turn.
    If you find free skiing challenging then all the more reason, probably means you are skiing point to point rather than "feeling" the rhythm with the boat and your position on the ski. There is absolutely no reason to take "hits" freeskiing.
    Hope it works for you :)
    dvskier
  • sunvalleylawsunvalleylaw Posts: 1,259 Mega Baller
    @Deep11 , absolutely working on things while freeskiing works better for me. I tend to "lose it" in the course and get too focused on those little ball things.

  • sunvalleylawsunvalleylaw Posts: 1,259 Mega Baller
    Just re-reading this and wanted to say thank you. The caliber and quality of the people that will respond to you here, and the advice they give, is pretty impressive.
    ReggieO
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