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ZBS Read what is posted at usawaterski

ntxntx Posts: 826 Crazy Baller
Sooooo now it looks like passes skied above divsion max will not be scored at the higher speed????? Or am I reading it wrong? WOW
Gloersen

Comments

  • MISkierMISkier Posts: 2,611 Mega Baller
    I think we need @JeffSurdej to clarify. I'm not sure what that really means, but it looks like ZBS was completely neutered to allow no commensurate credit for speed greater than age division max.
    The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears.
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,479 Mega Baller
    edited April 2017
    That would be counter to the definition of Zero Based Scoring, so my first guess is it doesn't mean that.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,891 Administrator
    Over speed skiing does not give more points. The under speed skiing is what the rule is used for.

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  • GloersenGloersen Posts: 920 Crazy Baller
    edited April 2017
    This is clearly a departure from what is stated for Class "C's"

    The rule language should again be amended to reflect what is stated in the AWSA post.

    Thanks for pointing this out @ntx :

    Clarification Regarding AWSA Rule 10.06C

    Posted by: usawsOn: 04/05/2017 15:19:41In: Water Skiing

    With the changes that occurred in changing the ZBS rule, the Rules Committee discovered that when the rule was amended the following portion of rule 10.06C should have been kept in place. There may still be skiers who want to ski above their age division maximum speed and accept the lower speed as their score. It will not put them on the IWWF ranking list this way nor use the new ZBS matrix, but it will allow some skiers maybe for health reasons to use this option.


  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,899 Infinite Pandas
    @JeffSurdej How can one get an IWWF ranking score when the speeds don't match AWSA age maximums?
  • JeffSurdejJeffSurdej Posts: 543 USAWS Official
    Let me try and simply this. You can use ZBS to its fullest, i.e. above and below max speed, in all classes except in a record event you can not go above speed and get credit for it. You can go above max speed in a record still, just as before, but no extra buoys are awarded, that is what the latest article is about, when the AWSA BOD amended ZBS to not allow above max speed in records we forgot that we still need to allow it but the skier does not get credit and @eleeski I believe that is how someone can still get on IWWF rankings while skiing above max speed, take a 53 year old womens, AWSA forces her to go 32mph but IWWF is 34, so she can ski 34 in awsa, get a score for IWWF but on the AWSA rankings it counts still as 32 mph, no extra buoys given. So ZBS, every division every class tourney can shorten before max speed. When it comes to above max speed that can only be done in non-junior divisions in class C if the LOC allows it.
    AWSA President
    Ralph Leebishop8950MISkierThan_Bogan
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,899 Infinite Pandas
    @JeffSurdej Thanks for the explanation. The wording is still very confusing. It is not really clear from the wording that ZBS underspeed will not count for IWWF ranking. The wording also appears to not give IWWF credit for AWSA age division overspeed in the few cases where the overspeed is the IWWF proper speed. Some rewording is needed still?

    Eric
  • JeffSurdejJeffSurdej Posts: 543 USAWS Official
    @eleeski just go around as many buoys as you can and let the cards fall where they fall :) All smart assing aside, yes its can be confusing, not sure how to make it any better with wording, it got more confusing with the amendment, it was nice and simple before we decided to make it different in records and leave it up to the LOC, but it is what it is right now, the 10.06 part is not new, its the way it was worded before with respect to skiers going above max speeds in record events. In the end skiers will only get IWWF rankings if they follow IWWF rules.
    AWSA President
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,303 Mega Baller
    @JeffSurdej where in the IWWF rule book does it say a skier can ski ABOVE max speed? Where in the IWWF rule book does it say you can shorten the rope before max speed? In fact, where in the IWWF rule book does it say that after each pass the boat should speed up or the rope be shortened (If at max speed or less or whenever)?

    In the "Over 35" rules section near the end it specifically states the max speeds for various older divisions.

    Help me understand how the AWSA board says you can ski above max speed for any class L or R slalom event?

    Man I'm confused .....
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
    AWSA Southern Region EVP
    RichardDoaneBruce_Butterfield
  • MattPMattP Posts: 6,007 Mega Baller
    @JeffSurdej I am assuming Class R & L are considered "record" events?
    RichardDoane
  • DWDW Posts: 2,027 Mega Baller
    Interesting to note that US rules or regulations differ from International rules / regulations. Very similar to other international sports, the US regulation committees tend to draft a unique set of regulations to suit the 50 states rather than comply with the International version. Difficulties always creep in for various records or true international participation as changes are made. Not indicating a right or wrong, just noting the challenge when blending is an issue.
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,303 Mega Baller
    @DW while the IWWF rule book does (mostly) define the events etc. the rule book is largely written to administer "world" events - like the Worlds, Jr Worlds, Over 35 Workds ,etc. So in reality it's not written to accommodate "national" needs.

    Perhaps a better plan is for any Natiomal organization develop its own set of rules and then IWWF can either 'allow/disallow' those national rules to be used for Ranking Level (class L) events.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
    AWSA Southern Region EVP
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 2,772 Mega Baller
    edited April 2017
    @klindy
    Keith that is pretty much the way the IWWF rule book is now, So if one is allowed to shorten the rope in a "L" event at below max speed that skier will only receive IWWF rankings score for the fastest speed run and does not get the extra buoy credit for a line shortening at the slower then max speed. so if one runs 52 K in a 55 K division and shortens the rope the skier will get credited for the below max pass and nothing on the shortening passes as far as what is applied to the IWWF Ranking list.
    I think the thing that bothers most AWSA skiers and membership is they have demanded a smaller streamlined set of national rules and the AWSA leadership continue to to think of way's to complicate and con-volute the rule book for a relatively simple sport!
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


    walleye
  • DanEDanE Posts: 890 Crazy Baller
    You guys thought it was confusing explaining slalom results to newcomers by line lengths off and Imperial vs metric?
    Good luck explaining this!
  • MISkierMISkier Posts: 2,611 Mega Baller
    @OB1, yes you can. And, since you've been doing it, what are your thoughts on the faster speed? Do you like it or not? It sounds as though you're planning to use it.
    The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears.
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,349 Crazy Baller
    As @MISkier said, yes @OB1, you can score 104 with [email protected]@36. If you do it three times that's your average. Now that you have that score, good luck skiing up to your seed at Regionals or Nationals. That's my problem with skiing over speed. What good is it? What's it get you?
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
    santangelo
  • GloersenGloersen Posts: 920 Crazy Baller
    edited April 2017
    @JeffSurdej -

    based on the brief entry of the AWSA news release, (3rd item from bottom) it still seems confusing as to how ZBS is to applied to score for "C" tournaments. Assuming LOC approval, will scores above age division max be scored at that speed and applied to rankings? E.g.; the scenario posted above based on the "clarification" seems invalid.

    It'd be good to know definitively, and stated specifically, for those who may be assuming otherwise if planning such for a Class C.

    Clarification Regarding AWSA Rule 10.06C

    With the changes that occurred in changing the ZBS rule, the American Water Ski Association Rules Committee discovered that when the rule was amended the following (below) portion of rule 10.06C should have been kept in place. There may still be skiers who want to ski above their age division maximum speed and accept the lower speed as their score. It will not put them on the IWWF ranking list this way, nor use the new ZBS matrix, but it will allow some skiers, maybe for health reasons, to use this option. The scoring program has already been upgraded and to have two types of scoring for the few that want this option is not a procedure that will be offered. So to score this option the skier will be started at the age division maximum speed and the times will need to be verified manually.


    10.06C: A skier may elect to start at a speed higher than his division maximum speed, up to his respective Open Division maximum speed, and may not return to his division maximum speed on subsequent passes. Any passes skied at that higher speed shall receive credit for buoys as though they were being run at his division maximum speed.
    BRY
  • JeffSurdejJeffSurdej Posts: 543 USAWS Official
    @Gloersen I see the confusion, this addition, or shall I say this statement that has gone back into the rulebook only applies to record events. Let me check on something and Ill get back to you all.
    AWSA President
    RazorRoss3BRY
  • JeffSurdejJeffSurdej Posts: 543 USAWS Official
    @Gloersen

    The new clarification is just a rule that has been in place for 10 or 15 years.
    A skier can still ski faster in record events still but it only counts for that division max.
    ZBS would have fixed that, but parts were shut down.
    So now, maybe we have a skier who has been competing in class C tournaments above div max because that is all that is available. So even if the skier has to ski at 32 but lose the extra six buoys that ZBS would have given him and they are willing to take that hit, we needed that provision still in place.

    I am not really sure how many people have used this option in the past,maybe no one recently, but our intent wasn't to get rid of it if full ZBS wasn't in affect.
    A skier who really wants that IWWF ranking score would need to ski in those divisions like International Men, Senior Men etc, but a skier can't compete for a Regional or National title against other skiers when using those codes.
    At Reg and Nationals they need to make that choice.
    Otherwise skiers at Class C tournaments get to ski above maximum age division speeds and get credit for skiing faster so long at the LOC "lets" them.
    AWSA President
    eleeski
  • JeffSurdejJeffSurdej Posts: 543 USAWS Official
    @Gloersen

    The new clarification is just a rule that has been in place for 10 or 15 years.
    A skier can still ski faster in record events still but it only counts for that division max.
    ZBS would have fixed that, but parts were shut down.
    So now, maybe we have a skier who has been competing in class C tournaments above div max because that is all that is available. So even if the skier has to ski at 32 but lose the extra six buoys that ZBS would have given him and they are willing to take that hit, we needed that provision still in place.

    I am not really sure how many people have used this option in the past,maybe no one recently, but our intent wasn't to get rid of it if full ZBS wasn't in affect.
    A skier who really wants that IWWF ranking score would need to ski in those divisions like International Men, Senior Men etc, but a skier can't compete for a Regional or National title against other skiers when using those codes.
    At Reg and Nationals they need to make that choice.
    Otherwise skiers at Class C tournaments get to ski above maximum age division speeds and get credit for skiing faster so long at the LOC "lets" them.
    AWSA President
    RazorRoss3eleeski
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