MOVING FRONT BINDING FORWARD OR BACK

bananaronbananaron Posts: 522 Crazy Baller
Please refresh my memory how moving the front binding forward impacts the ski and moving it back impacts the ski.Your expert info would be appreciated as I am in a rut.Thanks...........Ron
Ron Engblom Brainerd lakes,minnesota
JJVDMZN

Comments

  • JmoskiJmoski Posts: 409 Solid Baller
    edited June 2017
    With the binding in the correct spot the water should be breaking right at the front of the front binding as your coasting.
  • WishWish Posts: 8,423 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • ScottScottScottScott Posts: 1,261 Mega Baller
    Yes.....along with fin adjustment, boot location is covered in @SkiJay s book Fin Whispering. Good stuff, get the book.
    6ballsskialex
  • SkiJaySkiJay Posts: 2,314 Mega Baller
    edited June 2017
    That's a BIG question @bananaron, but a really important one. @skialex touched on a number of considerations, the teeter-totter being an especially helpful visual. Another relationship I'd add would be how binding location affects the way the ski finishes turns, or more specifically, how much cross-course angle you end up with at the finish of turns—especially if your hips are within 18" of the water or less while rounding buoys. The further forward your bindings are, the longer the tail of the ski is relative to the tip, and the more the tail will resist smearing through to a complete finish. The further back the bindings are, the shorter the tail of the ski is, and the more the ski will have a tendency to over-rotate through the finish of turns.

    If your hips are within 18" of the water around the buoys, binding position has more effect on the angle the ski finishes turns with than the fin. If you're not that banked over, the ski isn't rolling up onto as steep an edge, and the fin has more effect on how the tail smears around the ball than binding location.

    If you want to read more on binding location considerations, I've collected some of the articles I've posted here on BallOfSpray, and posted them on my blog at: finwhisperin....ski-bindings/ so they're easier to find.
    www.FinWhispering.com ... Your ski should be your dance partner, not a wrestling opponent
    ski6jonesUWSkierskialexWish
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,497 Mega Baller
    @SkiJay In your experience what line length would equate to 18" for most skiers. Assume 34mph for this analysis.
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
  • SkiJaySkiJay Posts: 2,314 Mega Baller
    @disland It's hard to equate line length to angle of lean because some 22 off skiers pull way too long and turn at high-speed steep lean angles, and some shortline skiers change edges so early that they are slow and relatively upright around the ball. But 28 or shorter is as good an estimate as any.

    And using the hips being less than 18" off the water is just an easy way to estimate how much the ski is rolled up onto a steep edge. What really matters is that the steeper the ski's roll angle, the more binding location takes over smear control from fin setup around the ball.
    www.FinWhispering.com ... Your ski should be your dance partner, not a wrestling opponent
    Wish
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,497 Mega Baller
    @SkiJay Thanks
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
  • IlivetoskiIlivetoski Posts: 1,191 Crazy Baller
    @Skijay Its interesting to read that because I noticed the exact opposite on my VTR, and the reasoning that I heard from some very elite skiers was because the tail of the ski had so much rocker, that putting the boots forward lifted the back of the ski out of the water when you turned hard thus over rotating and blowing out the tail
  • ALPJrALPJr Posts: 2,649 Mega Baller
    I haven't had a tail issue with the V-Type R. I moved forward from stock first, a 16th forward then an 1/8, and settled at a 16th back from stock. I like it there.
  • SkiJaySkiJay Posts: 2,314 Mega Baller
    @Ilivetoski I hear what you're saying about the VTR, but blowing the tail is not a normal or inevitable consequence of moving the bindings forward on all skis. All the same, you do raise a great point.

    On some current skis you can move as far forward as the inserts allow and still ski your top pass so long as appropriate fin compensations have also been made. And on other skis, if you move too far forward you can encounter a list of deficiencies including tip-grab, tip washout, incomplete wide turns, and tail blowing. Simply move back a hair and refocus your efforts on fin tuning to achieve the results you are after.

    However, none of these binding-related issues change the relationship between binding location and smear at high roll angles—they just limit how far forward you can go with this tuning option on some ski designs.
    www.FinWhispering.com ... Your ski should be your dance partner, not a wrestling opponent
    Wish
  • MDB1056MDB1056 Posts: 859 Crazy Baller
    great info here from skialex and skijay and others!
  • WishWish Posts: 8,423 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @SkiJay So let's say boots are forward and ski rotates less. What is the compensation in fin movements for this?

    What about the opposite.?
    Thanks. Learn a lot from you!!
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • SkiJaySkiJay Posts: 2,314 Mega Baller
    Hi @Wish!

    As you move forward, the increasing area of ski behind your bindings restricts smear. So any fin change that increases smear is a candidate for compensating. You can reduce fin area (FA) by either reducing FD or FL, or you can increase DFT, or any combination of these. The fin adjustment(s) you choose depend on which secondary effects you want.
    • Reducing FD will cause the ski to roll onto steeper edges more easily.
    • Reducing FL will reduce how much tip engagement you tend to get.
    • Increasing DFT will increase smear AND increase how much tip engagement you get.
    As a generalized rule of thumb, I've been using FL lately because it's secondary effects are consistent with the compensation I'm looking for. A forward binding move decreases smear, but it also increases tip engagement. Reducing FL increases smear (by reducing FA) and reduces tip engagement. And while it depends on ski design, if you reduce FL by 10% of the forward binding move, you can maintain a fairly consistent tip/tail balance. Of course all of this works visa versa.

    If this seems a little too tidy, that's cause it is. Moving the bindings forward increases tip engagement both in pitch and yaw, where FL adjustments effect tip engagement only in yaw—but it's still the best compensation of the choices we have.

    Just don't lose sight of "why" we are moving the bindings around. The goal is to fine-tune how much the tail smears around the finish of the turn at high roll angles where the effectiveness of the fin is at its lowest.
    www.FinWhispering.com ... Your ski should be your dance partner, not a wrestling opponent
    WishDrago
  • BoozeBooze Posts: 460 Crazy Baller
    @Skijay - can you expound on how binding placement affects ski path or tendencies in the 2nd wake to preturn zone? I'm working on conserving every bit of my cross course vector while rolling onto/into the inside ski edge (or moving ski out and under handle).
    Could bindings to far back contribute to a ski not holding an outward path well, during and after edge change?

    Thanks for your useful info here.
    [and yes I have the book, :) ]

  • WishWish Posts: 8,423 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited June 2017
    Can you believe I don't have a copy yet. Father's Day..it's happening. Sending link to my wife today. Thanks @skiJay.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    SkiJay
  • SkiJaySkiJay Posts: 2,314 Mega Baller
    @Booze Bindings too far back will reduce your cross-course angle—not the ski's angle necessarily, but the actual path you travel behind the boat. And if your initial outbound angle isn't good, it's pretty likely the outbound angle that follows will suffer too. But I can't make a definitive statement on this because the way you personally transition from your cut into your pre-turn has a huge effect on the outbound angle, i.e. your ability to stay down and against the line with a good connection while moving onto your gliding edge, where the water is breaking on your tip, etc.
    www.FinWhispering.com ... Your ski should be your dance partner, not a wrestling opponent
    ALPJr6balls
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