Does less wing=more over the top crashes?

Buoyhead69

Still skiing here in MI. I got a D3 ARC to replace my worn Quest 45. I checked the settings on my Quest and it was almost dead on stock. EXCEPT, 10 degree of wing. I had skied that Quest for years and really improved a lot on it so that’s all I knew. So I set up my ARC to stock but put the wing at 8 degrees because 10 is a lot of wing and I wanted to try it more toward a stock setting. I have gone over the top across the second wake about 4 times in the last few weeks skiing that ski which is more than the whole summer for me. It seems to always going from 4-5 ball, I’m LFF, and it’s always during a good set where I feel good & early to the balls but I just scream across the wake and go boom. Not fun. I do like the ski, I am getting to the ball much faster, seems like in a nanosecond I’m across the wakes & at the ball (although this may be due to less wing?) and I’ve had some great passes on it. It’s cold & windy here so I’m skiing 34.2, usually-22 or a half loop which amounts to -25, sometimes-28 if the water is good. I’ve given up on -32 for this year, it’s cold & I don’t want to get hurt- hence the disdain for going over the top! So, is the ARC faster than my Quest? Is this because of the wing? Is it just me getting lazy going to 5 ball? Should I just put the wing back to 10 degrees? Advice please.

AdamCord

Put it on a 10 and find out. That’s how you learn.

MISkier

I wonder if your body position this time of year is affected by the cold and you are instinctively curling forward as a reaction. Thus, you may be bent forward, which will especially cause OTF going from offside to onside across the wake.

Take video of your passes, regardless of whether you change the wing or not. Get before and after, if you do change the wing.

Horton

A few more degrees of wing will not make you crash. It may make the end of the turn awkward and that might put you on bad position at the wakes and that might make you crash.

If you leave the ball in good position, extra wing will not make you crash at the wakes.

If you keep crashing please get video : )

Horton

@AdamCord be nice!

AdamCord

@Horton sorry I didn’t intend that to sound mean. Just that he’ll probably learn a lot more by trying a few things.

It’s counter intuitive but less wing could actually result in more OTFs because it will make the tip ride lower and the tail ride higher behind the boat. A steep wing is generally more work, but coming off the 2nd wake it will hold the tail deeper. So it is possible that this issue is caused by having less wing, but without trying there’s no way to know for sure.

Buoyhead69

@Horton I’m skiing less wing now. I was set up on my previous ski at 10 degrees, a whole lot of wing. It was all I knew, I bought it that way, I was new to the course & skiing 29mph so I just skied. I’ve worked really hard to improve & now I’m skiing 34.2 and shorter lines & figure I should think a little about fin settings so I set my new ARC more toward stock. So now I’m at 8 degrees. I was wondering if this may be why I’m having these ridiculous over the top crashes right as I’m crossing the 2nd wake. I usually fall at the buoy as I’m trying to set edge/angle & body position, I can live with those falls I’m going slow! But over the top across the 2nd wake? Not fun, especially in cold water.

@AdamCord no offense was taken, that’s good advice. I will change it today. Why should I try to get more toward stock? I thought having less wing more toward stock would make me more of “real skier.” Dumb of me. Really looking forward to seeing how more wing feels.

Than_Bogan

Stock is always just a reference point. If your style dictates a particular setup, do it!

gregy

Are you using a wetsuit or Drysuit. My wetsuit I'd guess adds at least 10lbs. For me seems to be more of a problem than the colder water as far as setup. If you get a chance post up some video.

Buoyhead69

I’m in a wetsuit over a heater shirt. That’s a good point, probably does add 10lbs. A lot of variables to cold water skiing.

BRY

Going OTF into, during or right after the turn can be ski set up (wing, fin, bindings) and/or you. Going OTF off the second wake is you. If you are in a strong (stacked) position handle in then nothing can get you forward there, you will just power through it. Might feel like crap if ski wrong, but you will power through it. I will bet the handle is a bit out and your bending your shoulders a bit forward before the white water so the boat ends up owning you into an OTF. Video, it's humbling, but video. Everyone's got a phone and anyone can sit and video you. Better yet video and post it here...
And +1 to put it at 10 and see, put it at 9 and see...
But check your stack at the beginning of the white water.

Buoyhead69

@BRY you make good points. Plus it fits that, when I do go OTF, it’s from 4 to 5 ball. I’m in a heavy cold wetsuit & I get lazy/unfocused going to 5. I gotta be able to make that -22 pass in my sleep, even if I’m cold.

wilecoyote

I've only recently been getting into -22. Just 3 or 4 attempts this season, and 2 OTFs. One onside, one off, both right at or after the 2nd wake. It's making me a bit gun shy of 22 LOL. I've never considered it to be ski settings, I'm quite sure that every time speed goes up or line gets shorter, form issues are amplified. Luckily I get great coaching (JMac) so if I can do what he tells me to do I'm sure I'll get through it. None the less, I'm with you, it's hard to commit to the pass when the last time you did, you had a scary crash.

Buoyhead69

@wilecoyote, this fall was warm & I was running-22 regularly, finally got my -28 & ran it a bunch & even got a few balls at -32 so I was extremely happy about that. Things changed when I went to a new ski with new set up (less wing). Suddenly I had a few OTFs at -22. Really aggravating! But lots of great advice on BOS forum. I like the idea that cold, wetsuit, less wing whatever, I have to stay committed to good body position. @BRY makes good points. And I’m happy that after my last OTF I ran the very next pass with the same ski/setup. I want to try my 1st tournament next year & tournament skiers on our lake (nationals qualifiers) tournaments are a total game changer- no familiar boat, lake, friends etc. I gotta be able to run that -22 pass in my sleep to get it in a tournament. But it’ll be fun to add some wing, I hope to get out tomorrow.

MISkier

@Buoyhead69, where in MI are you located? If you need any information about the tournament scene here, let me know.

Buoyhead69

Thank you. I’m in West Bloomfield. Lyon Ski club has a couple tournaments close by. I almost entered one last summer but I wasn’t running passes at 34.2mph consistently & for me to commit to a tournament I want to at least be running -22 basically every time, I’m sure I’ll be nervous! But thanks again, I see you’re from the West Side of the state?

MISkier

I actually live in the Lansing area. I previously belonged to a ski club west of Grand Rapids (very long drive). Now, I ski at Tivoli.

My first tournament was at Lyons Ski Club in September of 2010. I was not regularly running 22 off then, but decided to make my move anyway. Initially, I was a novice, which guarantees you 4 passes. You are scored to your first miss/fall, but can ski extra passes until you run a pass for a score at your max speed. I did that in round 2 of that tournament.

There are many tournaments on the East side at Tivoli, Hidden, Lynette, and Lyons. The West side tournaments are great, too. I ski in 5 or more of those every year.

Think about participating. I think you'll find it is a very relaxed atmosphere and you are only proving things to yourself.

wilecoyote

@Buoyhead69 now I get it, I missed that those falls were at 22, That is kinda strange. How's the wake at 22 on the boat you ski behind? In my case I'm skiing beind a 200, and I don't really notice it, but I've heard that 22 is the worst length for wakes behind most boats. Is it possible that the 22 lump and your new ski setup to is the culprit and shorter lines are ok? Just a thought.

Buoyhead69

Skied today with more wing; 9 degree instead of 8. It made a profound difference. Very cold today (air & water in 40s). Not even a sniff of going OTF even with cold/wetsuit & hands a little numb. Ran my -22 & it seems I found my setting. .Fast enough to be early to the ball but never felt like i was screaming across the wakes. Definitely focused on good body position but I’m now a believer in the importance of fin set up. Even felt like the ski “snapped” around the buoy & my turns were quicker/easier. Could this have.anything to to with more wing?

Buoyhead69

@wilecoyote BTW can’t blame any of those OTFs on my boat, I really love my boat (2012 Malibu Response Txi), no issues with the wake at -22 or -28. It’s a great boat but sounds like you have a beauty too! If I ever get rid of mine it’ll be for a Nautique 200!

RichardDoane

@Buoyhead69 lack of stack = poor body position = OTF, @BRY hit it right on the head. go back to 10 degrees and work on your handle control and stack, and you'll be running -32 next season. My .02 is to start skiing tournaments as early and soon as possible next season, because the way to get better at tournament skiing is to ski more tournaments

Buoyhead69

Thanks @RichardDoane good advice and everything @BRY said is true.

But I’m blown away by this wing adjustment. Especially in light of the recent thread asking if -38 skiers notice fin changes more than -28 skiers. To reiterate, I’m a rookie, 3rd summer in the course, very happy to be skiing 34.2mph and getting my -28 this fall. Still, I thought fin settings were for “guys like you” not me. I skied again today with my new 9 degree wing instead of 8. Both air & water in 40s, and a steady crosswind we don’t see on our lake very often. I ran -22 back to back, multiple passes, felt in control & much easier to remain in a stacked position across both wakes. Never close to an OTF. Plus the ski seems to snap around the buoys quicker. Almost cut it to -28 but in these conditions decided to groove my -22. So I agree obviously that a stacked position is absolutely vital. Just blown away by how much easier I stay stacked by that that one little adjustment. @AdamCord said I’m in the beginning, “put it on 10 and find out” I went to 9 instead but I found out.

RichardDoane

shorten to -28 just for fun, and don't lose your "stack", it's easier to run than -22 because the boat starts doing more of the work

pregom

I'm still working on my 15 off passes, learning to be stacked and have the right timing, the right handle control and all that. That's probably why I don't understand @RichardDoane's statement that -28 is "easier to run than -22 because the boat starts doing more of the work." I'd love to see an explanation of that.

RichardDoane

@pregom - once you learn entry gate timing and good body position, the -28 pass will feel easier that -22 and -15 because you don't have to hold the "pull" as long. The boat picks you up and essentially "flings" you through the middle and to the other side where you quickly change edge and ride the line out to the next ball

pregom

thanks, @RichardDoane, I think I see what you are saying. Who knows, given my acute slalom-itis, as I said in another post, maybe next year I'll get to that level?

gregy

My ski hasn't been coming around like I wanted lately so I decided to try some adjustments, I moved the fin back about 10 thousands and added a few thousands of length to make it equal to what I had in my notes. The ski was coming around beautifully but it was riding uncomfortable flat cutting. I took a bad OTF on the second pass. I ended up sking ok after that just had to really be careful to not get over the front cutting. I tried another small adjustment and ski was over turning again. It surprising how a little change can make the ski fell so different. I'm putting it back to the original settings and do some Fin Whisperer reading to see where to go next.

RichardDoane

@pregom - don't be afraid to enter a tournament at the beginning of next season and start at 30/15, then 32/15, then 34/15, and if all that goes right you are now at the -22. We all started at slower/longer lines so there's no shame in any pass, no matter what the speed/length of line.

Buoyhead69

@RichardDoane great advice on this thread thank you and I definitely understand where you’re coming from. However, for @pregom, I too was always confused when I’d hear really good skiers say stuff like -28 is easier than -22.

As a guy who just started running my 34.2mph -28 pass late this summer/fall, I can say it’s not easier than -22 LOL! I’ve gotten a few balls at -32 and same thing. Harder! Things happen so much faster at shorter lines!! It’s really like anything else in life, repetition and more importantly repetition of good habits. Skiing with better skiers than myself has also been huge for me, taking their advice.

Obviously staying stacked is the biggest challenge and physics dictate that shorter lines make this more challenging. Plus, like @gregy I became a big believer in proper fin set up, just shocked at the difference it makes. I’ve been told “don’t think in the course!” Instead rely on muscle memory etc.

However, for me if I have 1 thought it’s “back arm pressure.” I met Nate in FL & heard him say this & didn’t understand it because at that time I was skiing much slower speeds. Now I find it really helpful, it kills 3-4 birds with 1 stone. If I have good back arm pressure I’m more likely to pull through the wakes, keep slack out of the rope, keep my elbows on vest & handle in a strong position, and my hips up & chest stacked on hips. So that works for me but a guy in our lake who skies nationals said “I hate that one, I’ve heard guys say that but it never worked for me.” So obviously many different ways to look at things.

Any other “course thoughts” out there?