Dual-Lock peeling away

Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,986 Mega Baller
edited July 2010 in Technique & Theory
<p>
Thought I'd share one experience, and perhaps others can do so too and see if there is anything general to learn here.
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<p>
I'm using a Goode plate -- the kind that is NOT intended to release, so is held on by lots of Dual-Lock.
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<p>
Shortly after my ski arrived from Goode, some of the adhesive "layer" began to peel away -- some from the ski side and some from the Dual-Lock side.  Over a few months of skiing (interrupted by winter), this slowly got a little worse, and then suddenly became a huge problem, with the whole binding being able to lift off.
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<p>
When I went to fix it, I took a close look at the Dual-Lock mounted to the ski, and I was a bit surprised that it wasn't mounted in straight lines.  A single strip was curved along each edge of the ski, which results in a fairly significant bend over the length of the strip.  Although I know nothing about Dual-Lock, it would be my first guess that this curvature is not good for the holding power -- surely it must stress the "long" edge and create bunching on the "short" edge?
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<p>
Of course, the alternative also has problems.  What I'm trying this time is keeping every strip straight, with the edge strips touching the ski's edge at each end, but not following its contour in between.  But that means I don't have any at the very edge of the ski near the middle of the binding.  I can't immediately think of any problems this will cause, assuming that I still have enough total holding power.  (I estimate I've reduced the area of Dual-Lock by about 20%, which I think is still PLENTY for my 170 lbs frame, but I guess I'll find out.)
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<p>
Has anyone done their own mounting of non-releasable Dual-Lock and found a given method to work well or poorly?
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<p>
Also, all of my failure points were in the clear tape (attached to the ski), whereas the black tape attached to the plate is (so far!) completely fine.  I wouldn't really expect any difference in performance based on color, but figured I'd mention that just in case. By coincidence, the replacement tape I was able to beg up was black, so I've unintentionally changed to all black now.
</p>
Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
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Comments

  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,986 Mega Baller
    Also related to this: has anyone found that it takes any amount of time for the Dual-Lock to reach maximum adhesion after being applied?  Like a "drying time?"  For example, if I were to immediately mount my plate to it (which I purposely didn't) would that be more likely to peel it up than if I waited a few hours (or days)?
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • jdarwinjdarwin Posts: 1,381 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    The clear adhesive does not last as long as the black.  The clear is much easier to work with but does not have the longevity (wet,dry,wet,dry,etc.) of the black.  I too,  do not wish to release.  I use one strip of black 400 and one strip of clear 250 on my plate and two strips of clear 250 on the ski.  I have to replace the 250 approx every month 1/2 to 2 months.  The black should last most of a season.
    Joe Darwin
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,986 Mega Baller
    <p>
    Wow, that seems like REALLY poor life.  Since Goode's manuals don't mention changing it, I was thinking it was more of a "lifetime of the ski" kind of thing.  As much as I greatly prefer this system to screws, it's disappointing to think I'll have to change it out so often.
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    Why is the clear easier to work with?
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    <p>
    Any clue why the black lasts so much longer?
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    <p>
    I don't think I mentioned that all of what I have is 250.
    </p>
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • clemsondaveclemsondave Posts: 369 Baller
    I agree that the black lasts longer, but I have always used the clear. I usually get a year or apx 10 releases on the clear 250. The adhesive on the black is a major PITA to get off. Helps to soak it with Goof Off.



    Also, I use 2" wide strips instead of multiple 1" strips. I think it holds better.
    Dave Satterfield - Richmond Water Ski Club
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,986 Mega Baller
    edited July 2010
    <p>
    Great info, folks.  Keep it coming.
    </p>
    <p>
    clemsondave: "Also, I use 2" wide strips instead of multiple 1" strips. I think it holds better. "
    </p>
    <p>
    Interesting.  I would have assumed that total area was all that mattered for holding power.  This isn't very relevant to me because I just want it to hold permanently, and I think I have plenty for that, but I'm curious:  Are there specific reasons you think the 2" holds better?  I suppose I could see why it might release more "smoothly," especially if releasing to the side, as opposed to "catching" just a bit on each new strip as it released.
    </p>
    <p>
    Oh wait:  Did you mean it sticks to the ski better -- i.e. lasts longer?  That would be VERY relevant to me!
    </p>
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • clemsondaveclemsondave Posts: 369 Baller
    edited July 2010
    In my experience, the 2" definitely sticks to the ski better. The fewer amount of pieces the better. I've occasionally replaced small sections that were damaged by cutting out small 1" wide sections. They never hold. I'd release and it would pull the tape from the ski.



    Imagine gluing two 2" x 4" boards to a wall versus one 2" x 8". The 2" x 8" would require more force to come off.



    I 'think' the 2" holds better on releases (ie takes more force to release), but that's just a gut feeling. I try not to release much! ;-)
    Dave Satterfield - Richmond Water Ski Club
  • scokescoke Posts: 756 Crazy Baller
    edited July 2010
    <p>
     
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    <p>
     From another perspective.
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    <p>
    I've been using the Dual Lock system going on 4 years now and reached a few conclusions:
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    <p>
    10 is the number of releases until the teeth start to lose their meshing mechanism. After the 10th +/- release, a stiff fall can release it as well as you can reconnect the stuff by hand. Not ideal but still ski-able.
    </p>
    <p>
    10 releases is quite a bit if you really think about it. If you crash hard enough to release 10 times in a two month period, there are bigger issues at play. For a couple of us about 2-4 releases over a month and some stretches of 6 weeks and no releases.
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    <p>
    Completely covering the plate. My last plate, straight from Goode, came completely covered. I matched it up to the ski with the exact same pattern and have no issues releasing or NOT releasing.
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    <p>
    The clear is not ideal, but ski-able, black/grey for me only. We noticed the clear does not have any backing therefore it doesnt have any "give" to it. The ski flexs and torques the plate, there is no give to the tape and quicker to release. We tested several skiers and skis with it. It consistently released quicker then that black/grey that had the cushion/buffer to it. I used up the last of the clear and never bought any more. If I wanted to release more, I would use the clear but thats not what I am after.
    </p>
    <p>
     
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    <p>
    Every season I swap my tape as this stuff flat out wears out. This actually seems like a long time to me being over the course of a season; this tape is NOT designed to hold a 190+ skier on a 67" piece of carbon fiber pounding across the wakes at speeds over 50mph constantly making turns, pressing loads 400-800 lbs. But that's exactly what we are using it for.
    </p>
    <p>
    We take for granted how specialzed and high end some of our equpiment actually is. Especially considering a batch of tape for $60 per year after riding a $1400 ski behind a $30k boat on a $xxx,xxx ski lake.
    </p>
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  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,986 Mega Baller
    edited July 2010
    <p>
    Lots of good points there, all.
    </p>
    <p>
    Maybe I'll order 2" next time and just install 2 pieces instead of 4.  If that buys me a little more time between changes, it'll easily be the better plan.
    </p>
    <p>
    I'm really fascinated to hear all these differences between the black and the clear.  For my purposes, I'm really glad I'm all-black now.
    </p>
    <p>
    I suppose it's not THAT bad to have to swap out the tape each winter.  But my time always seems so tight (except when I'm at work and typing on forums!) -- ideally I don't want to have to do anything to my ski for years at a time...  Guess that's unrealistic if I also want peak performance.  Stupid "not being able to simultaneously optimize everything"!
    </p>
    <p>
    I'll say again that this tape system is great.  It has huge advantages over screws.  But it's not quite "set and forget" just yet.  Maybe we'll get there someday.
    </p>
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • RogerRoger Posts: 1,610 Mega Baller
    People here (at Okeeheelee) that use the plate and have another release method (rubber boots, RS-1, FM, etc.), just use 3M double sided tape. No interloc...
    Roger B. Clark - Okeeheelee skier. Senior driver, Senior Judge
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,986 Mega Baller
    <p>
    Interesting.  Using double-sided tape gives up the ability to adjust boot position, though, doesn't it?
    </p>
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • RogerRoger Posts: 1,610 Mega Baller
    edited July 2010
    I don't use it myself as I have the RS-1 system on a ski with inserts. However, wouldn't you just move the boots as you would on any ski with inserts (doesn't the plate have screws and nuts that attach to the boots)? IE: the plate wouldn't move on the ski, the boots would move on the plate.
    Roger B. Clark - Okeeheelee skier. Senior driver, Senior Judge
  • Old MS AccoutOld MS Accout Posts: 2,114 Baller
    edited July 2010
    <p>
    When JD was mounting up his new Mid Ride he was braggingto me about what a pro he was at putting dual lock on skis and that he was thinking about starting up a buisness.
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    <p>
    Just send your ski to JD and he will send it back in a couple days.
    </p>
  • jdarwinjdarwin Posts: 1,381 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    <p>
    Roger - I don't think that would work w/ a Reflex set up - and, you want to talk about warranty issues........?
    </p>
    Joe Darwin
  • GMCGMC Posts: 114 Baller
    <p>
    Interesting comments all.  I just just set up a 9900 last night with 250 and 400, both clear (Reflex/Wiley intended to be the release, not the tape).  After reading the 3M literature it seemed like the clear for both sides was the obvious choice as it is made for indoor/outdoor use and the black is not.  Scoke probably nailed it with the theory that the ski flexing makes the adhesive wear prematurely - the black has foam backing, right?  That would probably allow the ski to flex without disturbing the adhesive.  Those southern guys that ski 11 months out of the year figure things out faster than the rest of us.  :)
    </p>
    <p>
    The main thing I took out of the 3M literature was that the longer the strip, the more likely it is to have mating problems.  Short strips are better than one long one - to a certain extent as clemsondave noted.  I think the point is to avoid curvature in the tape, thus I made separate strips for the front and rear bindings and tried to keep them straight relative to one another.  I played around with small pieces of each to see if relative orientation one piece to the other made a difference - they were the strongest when they were mated in parallel.  I also tried to line up strips next to each other so that the pattern of "mushrooms" was continuous - especially with the 250.  I have some cell-phone quality pics I could post if requested.
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    <p>
    Roger's suggestion of 2-sided tape makes a whole lot more sense.  I may have to try that next time. 
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  • MAD11MAD11 Posts: 578 Crazy Baller
    <p>
     
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    <p>
    Agree with Scoke on the black and grey. I saw him take one of the worst falls ever when the adhesive looked like it gave out on the clear. Man that was crazy. The best product for removing the black adhesive is a 3M citrus based remover. The part number was in the powershell manual and it is the right way to go. Does not damage the ski. Even trust it on a precious Warp 9. I have seen goof off discolor and even bubble several skis and that can't be a good thing. Goode actually uses the 3M product themselves. I got a can 3 years ago for $10 and have half of it left. Can get the part number when home if its not in the manual anymore.  I do think the clear may be good for testing skis since it comes off so easy. The problem is every ski I test I intend to stay on. At least for a few sets til I change my mind.
    </p>
  • Old MS AccoutOld MS Accout Posts: 2,114 Baller
    You would think that 3M would be able to tell you exactly how much Dual Lock is needed to attach a binding plate to a waterski.   
  • RogerRoger Posts: 1,610 Mega Baller
    <span><font size="1" color="#aaaaaa">CommentAuthor</font></span><a href="http://www.ballofspray.com/vanillaforum/account.php?u=501"><strong>jdarwin</strong></a>
    <li><font color="#aaaaaa"><span><font size="1">CommentTime</font></span><font size="2">43 minutes ago</font></font></li><span><font size="1" color="#aaaaaa">  </font></span>
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    <p>
    Roger - I don't think that would work w/ a Reflex set up - and, you want to talk about warranty issues........?
    </p>
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    </p>
    <p>
    You might be right about the Reflex, not sure what it's plate looks like. As for warranty issues, I simply choose to not use Goode products.
    </p>
    <p>
    MAD11, the citrus based 3M remover is the product of choice here as well.
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    Roger B. Clark - Okeeheelee skier. Senior driver, Senior Judge
  • jdarwinjdarwin Posts: 1,381 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    OK, MS.  That's enough out of you! 
    Joe Darwin
  • clemsondaveclemsondave Posts: 369 Baller
    It's ok JD, those Minnysoota boys don't really know anything outside of ice fishin'
    Dave Satterfield - Richmond Water Ski Club
  • clemsondaveclemsondave Posts: 369 Baller
    That's basically what I do, except I've had good luck with the clear (sticking to the ski and plate). I also put about a dozen clamps with blocks on it overnight to make sure it sets well.
    Dave Satterfield - Richmond Water Ski Club
  • Old MS AccoutOld MS Accout Posts: 2,114 Baller
    <p>
    You would think that a fine Minnesota company like 3M would have the data for binding attachment. I am sure that is why it was invented.
    </p>
    <p>
    You guys are crazy. If I were 3M, I would put a waiver on the box that says, not for use in watersports. I wonder if they even know?    
    </p>
  • jdarwinjdarwin Posts: 1,381 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    <p>
    MS - dual loc is like zip-ties.  Multiple uses and it's left up to the user regarding applicability.   I think it's a great attachment device - I just wouldn't count on it to release when needed. 
    </p>
    Joe Darwin
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,986 Mega Baller
    edited July 2010
    <p>
    Yeah, I'd be really uncomfortable relying on Dual-Lock as a release mechanism unless somebody could show me some really good data regarding its release characteristics from lots of applications and lots of different directions of releases.  In the absense of that, my first guess would be that the release force is highly variable -- i.e. that each time you attach it the amount of force needed to detach it is different.  I'd also expect the release force required to exhibit a general decline (underneath the volatility) over multiple releases.
    </p>
    <p>
    These hypotheses -- and I emphasize they are only that -- are based on the mushroom interlock details being completely unpredictable, and an assumption that the mushrooms get damaged a bit by each release.
    </p>
    <p>
    Of course, it's quite possible that rubber boots have equally bad characteristics!  But I've been using them long enough that I have the empirical evidence to trust them!
    </p>
    <p>
    To simply hold the boot plate to the ski, though, these issues don't matter.  Just make sure it's enough to always hold, and voila.  I think it's the best system for that, although I can see the double-sided tape being a reasonable alternative to screws as well.  I am so glad to have NO holes in my Goode and to never worry about the screws backing out (like every single set!) or a hole becoming stripped.  The additional adjustability is just a bonus.
    </p>
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,986 Mega Baller
    edited July 2010
    <p>
    GMC wrote: "After reading the 3M literature it seemed like the clear for both sides was the obvious choice as it is made for indoor/outdoor use and the black is not."
    </p>
    <p>
    I don't think that's true.  I think black is available in both indoor-only and indoor/outdoor varieties.  See
    </p>
    <p>
    <font color="#4b6db7"><a href="http://www.itapestore.com/3mduallock.aspx">http://www.itapestore.com/3mduallock.aspx</a></font>
    </p>
    <p>
    and note the difference between SJ3540 and SJ3550.
    </p>
    <p>
    That said, it does look like the black tape that I am CURRENTLY using has a black adhesive, implying it is SJ3540 (indoor use only).
    </p>
    <p>
    Hm.  Now I'm wondering if the so-called "indoor" one may actually work better for skiers, perhaps because the "foam adhesive" can tolerate repeated flexing better??
    </p>
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • AggieSkierAggieSkier Posts: 200 Baller
    For 250 Black -- buy the trial bags at $25 for 20 ft from link below. Use coupon codes: PSFree for free shipping and ECTwenty for 20% off your 2nd order

    They sell the 3M citrus based adhesive remover as well.

    http://www.bindingsource.com/items.asp?cat1ID=50&cat1Name=3M%99+Reclosables&cat2ID=&cat2Name=&cat3ID=&cat3Name=&familyID=149&familyName=3M%99+Dual+Lock%99+Trial+Bags
  • Old MS AccoutOld MS Accout Posts: 2,114 Baller
    I would feel safer zip tied to the ski.
  • BoodyBoody Posts: 613 Baller
    Question about the black. I've used it once, had the foam base. When I tried to remove it, my ski was covered with a 1/8 inch layer of black foam. I did not try the citrus remover but nothing would remove it including goof off. Is this the same stuff you guys are describing? Just about ruined my ski getting it off and took several hours.

    I have the clear, very easy to replace. But it seems to release easier as previously mentioned. I
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,986 Mega Baller
    <p>
    "I would feel safer zip tied to the ski."
    </p>
    <p>
    Too bad this forum doesn't have signatures -- I'd have to use that for mine!  I keep laughing every time I read that.
    </p>
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • GMCGMC Posts: 114 Baller
    thanimal - upon a second review I guess you're right.  The only precaution against using the SJ355x is to avoid UV exposure, which is not a problem between a binding plate and a ski.  For both SJ355x (the black) and the SJ356x (the clear), 3M says:<font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font></font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
    <p align="left">
    Closure strength should not be affected after prolonged exposure to water or humidity. Once bonded to the substrate the adhesive has excellent resistance to moisture under typical use conditions.
    </p>
    </font></font>
    <p>
    I couldn't find the 3M info on SJ354x.  I guess I just made myself a bit of a guinea pig but I think I'll be fine.  Either way, I agree that the foam may provide some tolerance to ski flexing. 
    </p>
    <p>
    Ugh.  My least favorite part about skiing a Goode (again).  On the bright side, I won't have to worry about my rear binding rotating any more - it's not going anywhere.
    </p>
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,986 Mega Baller
    Quick addendum here:  When I was putting my plate back on, I couldn't find a dowl to hit to force the Dual-Lock to attach, and so I tried an old handle.  This worked great -- probably better than any dowl.  So I thought I'd pass that along:  Wack that handle with a rubber mallet and it connects the Dual-Lock efficiently without any risk of damage to the plate or ski.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
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