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ABC/123

Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,898 Mega Baller
edited February 2012 in Boat Talk
<p>
Has any sort of "consensus" formed on the "best" Zero Off settings?
</p>
<p>
Do people tend to believe there is a single best setting?  (I'm guessing no.)  Is there a short list of settings that most people will do best with, and if so how do you pick?
</p>
<p>
Or are all 9 settings applicable to some skier or another, and if so has anybody written a document that is sufficient for somebody to figure out which type of skier they are?
</p>
<p>
Personally I don't get nearly enough sets behind ZO to feel confident in experimentally dialing in the best choice.  How I feel on a given day can make it extremely difficult to compare one set to another, and changing the setting within a set seems really disruptive to getting good practice.
</p>
<p>
Just wanting to catch up on the "prevailing wisdom" around this topic.  Thanks!
</p>
<p>
Fwiw, I *seem* to have determined that I like 1 better than 2 or 3, but haven't been able to see clear preference on A/B/C yet.  For tournaments I'm currently using B1, but there's nothing very scientific about that.
</p>
Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
«13

Comments

  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,412 Administrator
    <p>
    I think this covers it
    </p>
    <p>
    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOXG8wtxx_w">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOXG8wtxx_w</a>
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>

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  • jdarwinjdarwin Posts: 1,381 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    One thing you must consider, all boats (especially brand to brand) are different.  B2 behind a Nautique feels like C2 behind the Malibu (for me, anyway).   I've tried to eliminate that variable by sticking w/ a letter/number combination behind all boats but the feel is different boat to boat.  At the Big Dawg in Katy a few weeks ago, C1 and C2 were the most popular settings.  But you must remember that these skiers are technically sound (most of them) and work right behind the boat and not right off the buoy.  I find most of the 15off - 32off skiers like B2 the best.  It seems to provide the delay they need in getting the ski to finish properly and yet, doesn't throw them into the next buoy w/ excessive speed.  Those that ski w/ PP, tend to feel A1 or A2 is the most similar.  Therefore, if you are trying to replicate your practice "feel" w/ PP in a tournament setting using ZO, I would recommend "A". 
    Joe Darwin
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,898 Mega Baller
    <p>
    Great, so there's actually 27 things to try?  3 boats * 3 letters * 3 numbers??
    </p>
    <p>
    But anyhow, thanks for the detailed information.
    </p>
    <p>
    Personally, I still feel that PP is just a hair easier, even now that I am alternating boats so practicing equally with both.  So the idea of matching the feel of PP is pretty appealing.
    </p>
    <p>
    One thing I note: No mention of 3 in your discussion.  So can we ignore that possibility when searching for our favorite setting?
    </p>
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • jdarwinjdarwin Posts: 1,381 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    <span style="line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS','sans-serif'; color: #062971; font-size: 10.5pt">The number reflects how quickly the boat returns to baseline speed i.e. 34.2 mph.  Most skiers I know do not use 3 in either A, B or C.  You may find it works well for you.  It's a trial and error undertaking and even those of us who have wide access to ZO still struggle to find the right setting.  Every boat is different.  Every site you ski will be different.  Water temps / viscosity affect how a ski turns and therefore the timing where you need the boat to pick you up.  I don't believe there is a "perfect" setting for ZO.  You must find the setting that works best for you in most situations and go with it.</span>
    Joe Darwin
  • clemsondaveclemsondave Posts: 369 Baller
    I created a chart that I've heard is pretty accurate. Some have other theories, but this might give you an idea. Schnitz has it posted on his website. Mine is the one near the top of the page.
    http://www.schnitzskis.com/zerooff.html
    Dave Satterfield - Richmond Water Ski Club
  • HO 410HO 410 Posts: 351 Baller
    <p>
    From what I've seen and felt, the heavier and stronger you are, the higher number you will want to use. I weigh around 150lbs, using 2 (with any letter) was pretty boarderline, 3 was overwhelming. 
    </p>
    Nikon D80, 50mm f 1.8, Tokina 12-24mm... Sorry, wrong forum. Josh T.
  • Old MS AccoutOld MS Accout Posts: 2,114 Baller
    Pick one setting and stick with it.  
  • skibugskibug Posts: 2,110
    I think you need to experiment with all of them at least once to see what each feels like; then pick one setting and stick with it.
    Bob Grizzi
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,898 Mega Baller
    edited July 2010
    <div class="CommentBody">
    skibug wrote: "I think you need to experiment with all of them at least once to see what each feels like; then pick one setting and stick with it."
    </div>
    <div class="CommentBody">
    </div>
    <div class="CommentBody">
    So this seems to make complete sense, except it seems like one set behind a given setting can only tell me if that setting is or is not a complete disaster.  Any letter I paired with 3 clearly did not work for me.  But most of the other settings just seemed "different" -- very hard to say better or worse for me.  This is even true of 2 vs.1, but I guessed that since 3 felt so bad, going further away from that made sense, so I've been mostly using 1.
    </div>
    <div class="CommentBody">
    </div>
    <div class="CommentBody">
    I realize I could just arbitrarily pick one of the non-disaster settings and stay on it, but the truth is I'd always wonder if I could be using one that would be better for me in the long term!  (Yep -- it's a pathology, but one I suspect a lot of folks on this board also have...)  Because of this, I honestly believe I'd be happier if AWSA or ZO just decided that everyone was going to use the same setting.  Then that would be the definition of the sport and I'd never wonder if I could get more buoys by using some other setting.
    </div>
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • boarditupboarditup Posts: 585 Crazy Baller
    C2 feels the same to me behind any boat.  So, I use C2 and have adapted my skiing to it.  When I get to a PP boat, it feels weak and it takes a bit to adapt to the slower and weaker hook-up.  However, regardless of brand or motor, I am set at a tournament.
    Karl DeLooff - Powered by the wind
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,428 Crazy Baller
    C2 is what I use, no matter what boat.  All the brands are going to feel different regardless of setting, and you can drive yourself crazy adjusting settings based on boats.  No one has that much practice time available behind all 3 brands.  BTW I'm 5'11, 160 34 mph, run 32 fairly consistently with 2 - 4 at 35 most of the time.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
  • RogerRoger Posts: 1,592 Mega Baller
    <p>
    I usually use c2 on all boats as well. If it makes any difference, I still have my boat paperwork from the Big Dawg finals at Okeeheelee last year. The two finalists, Mark Shaw and Ben Favret used C2 and C3 respectively. Of all the skiers in that Big Dawg, only a small handful used a B setting, most used something in the As or Cs. I spoke with Becky Lathrop who pulled the recent Big Dawg in Texas and she says it's still like that, a small number of Bs and all the rest As and Cs.
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
    Roger B. Clark - Okeeheelee skier. Senior driver, Senior Judge
  • Old MS AccoutOld MS Accout Posts: 2,114 Baller
    There is a current pole on the Big Dawg web site. B2 is the leader with C1 and C2 tied. 
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,898 Mega Baller
    <p>
    I just realized I have a question:  Do these parameters work in a symmetric way when the boat needs to <em>de</em>celerate?  In other words, does 1 give a long period of a slight <em>reduction</em> in RPM when the skier has gotten free of the boat and the rope is not under tension?  This almost seems more important to me that what is going on under load.  If the boat slows down suddenly when you release (3?), I'd expect that to feel very different than if it slows down more gradually (1?).
    </p>
    <p>
    For A/B/C, it seems even harder to guess at the behavior when it's time to slow down.  Does A similarly delay taking any action in reducing RPM?  In this case, it theoretically might be harder to get free of the boat to get wide, as the boat would be making some effort to "keep up with you."  But if C is slowing down as soon as possible, I feel like that would contribute to a slack line in the preturn -- consider the extreme of what would happen if the driver just powered down at that point.
    </p>
    <p>
    Now that I'm thinking about this, it seems a little odd that everything I've ever read about Zero Off talks about how it ADDS power.  But it has to REDUCE power just as frequently, and how it does that seems kinda important, no?
    </p>
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,898 Mega Baller
    MS, can you link directly to the poll?  I appear to lack the competence to find it myself.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • skibugskibug Posts: 2,110
    <p>
    clemsondave above listed this link to schnitz site
    </p>
    <p>
     <a href="http://www.schnitzskis.com/zerooff.html">http://www.schnitzskis.com/zerooff.html</a>
    </p>
    <p>
    I really think the second set of graphical displays tell the story.  1, 2, 3 are the acceleration profiles and A, B, C is when the boat adds the RPM relative to your loading the boat.
    </p>
    <p>
    "1" is going to be the softest pull no matter where you have it applied (i.e C = right off the ball, B = somwhere between buoy and first wake, A = even later yet)  and it will cut off the quickest.  The acceleration profile looks like a "ramp up" - hits you soft and adds RPM
    </p>
    <p>
    "2" acceleration looks like a long "speed bump" - most similar to PP aceleration profile 
    </p>
    <p>
    "3" acceleration looks like a backward ramp - hits you hard and bleeds off RPM
    </p>
    Bob Grizzi
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,412 Administrator
    And all this is good for the sport? I keep this web site at a PG-13 level but I want to say some very bad words on this subject

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  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,898 Mega Baller
    edited July 2010
    <p>
    Found it!
    </p>
    <p>
    <a href="http://skibigdawg.wordpress.com/what-zero-off-setting-are-you-using/">http://skibigdawg.wordpress.com/what-zero-off-setting-are-you-using/</a> (then hit the view results button)
    </p>
    <p>
    But it seems the lesson of this poll is basically that every setting works for somebody.  With such a small sample size, I'd say the only significant deviations are B3 and C3, which are noticeably less popular (and yet almost 10% of respondents are using one of those, so obviously these settings aren't completely awful).
    </p>
    <p>
    All of the other settings seem to have a reasonable number of adherents.
    </p>
    <p>
    So it seems like just copying what "everybody else" is doing is not really feasible.  Darn! -- that's pretty much exactly what I was hoping to do!
    </p>
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,898 Mega Baller
    <div class="CommentBody">
    Horton wrote: "And all this is good for the sport? I keep this web site at a PG-13 level but I want to say some very bad words on this subject"
    </div>
    <div class="CommentBody">
    </div>
    <div class="CommentBody">
    Yep.  Agree with your implied meaning there!  I think all these settings are just a huge distraction, and I really think AWSA should get rid of this.  Pick control system parameters and we'll all get used to them!  Being able to tune the boat to help your skiing can theoretically add buoys, but so can lengthening the rope!  The sport is about overcoming well-defined challenges, so I see no reason to offer this level of customization.
    </div>
    <div class="CommentBody">
    </div>
    <div class="CommentBody">
    A natural reaction to my tirade would be "Well just pick something and ignore it, then."  But if I do that it's quite possible I've put myself at a disadvantage relative to a competitor who has chosen optimal personalized settings.  And so if my desire is to ski as well as I possibly can in tournaments (and you know it is!) then I have no choice but to care about these letters and numbers.
    </div>
    <div class="CommentBody">
    </div>
    <div class="CommentBody">
    There's an old argument in sports, games, and even politics (e.g. term limits) that if you don't like the existence of a given option, then just don't use it.  But when "just don't use it" means putting yourself at a disadvantage relative to others, that is NOT the same as eliminating the option.
    </div>
    <div class="CommentBody">
    </div>
    <div class="CommentBody">
    (Sorry to venture off topic a bit -- I'm an amatuer game theorist and extremely interested in incentives and optimal strategy and the like.)
    </div>
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • DragoDrago Posts: 1,614 Mega Baller
    <p>
    but...
    </p>
    <p>
    drivers, when they used their right hand, gave a big guy more gas than a little guy. just sayin'
    </p>
    SR SL Judge & Driver (“a driver who is super late on the wheel and is out of sync”)
  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 6,063 Mega Baller
    I practice behind a Malibu with PP and I have been skiing A2 in tournaments and performing about the same in tournaments as I do in practice.
    Mark Shaffer
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,412 Administrator
    edited July 2010
    You two guys are light on the line?
    Depending on the boat I am screwed with ZO as soon as I make the smallest error and lookup too early. Worse. Every boat is different. Nothing good for the sport about ZO.

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  • skibugskibug Posts: 2,110
    Even though I have ZO on our new boat, I have to say I am not impressed with pull it gives me; although it may be the boat as well.  I can see if you are in optimum (or very close to) position then it will work well for you (i.e the pros and top level skiers); but, get late, scramble.....forget it.
    Bob Grizzi
  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 6,063 Mega Baller
    John,

    I am not as good as you so that may be the difference. I ski into 32 off not into 38 like you. I have been told I am fairly light on the line for a big guy (230lbs).
    Mark Shaffer
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,412 Administrator
    I would not call my self a "good skier" I am a BallOfSpray

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  • skidawgskidawg Posts: 3,413 Mega Baller
    JTH, if u could ski behind zo regularly, not only would u like it, but u would also ski better, u r good enough, smart enough and doggon it people like u!
    NWA....Heaven on earth!
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,898 Mega Baller
    <p>
    Random thought:  Does anyone think the existence of these setting will hurt our chances (as remote as they may be) of becoming an Olympic sport?  My understanding is that an important sticking point is the role of the engine in the sport, and the ambiguous wording in the Olympic charter that is something like "the athlete shall not be assisted by a motor."
    </p>
    <p>
    This is a grey area, since it's impossible to do the sport without a motor, but the motor is really the skier's opponent.
    </p>
    <p>
    It kinda seems to me that having options to control the boat weakens that case, and makes it seem a lot more like the boat is "assisting" the skier.
    </p>
    <p>
    Am I completely nuts?
    </p>
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,412 Administrator
    <p>
    <span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: #062971; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS','sans-serif'">Yo Dawg,</span>

    <span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: #062971; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS','sans-serif'">That may be true but MOST of us do not ski behind new boats. That means that MOST of us are at a disadvantage. </span>

    <span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: #062971; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS','sans-serif'">ZO is simply bad for the sport. Please someone explain how I am wrong. I am not close minded. </span>

    <span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: #062971; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS','sans-serif'"> </span>

    <span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: #062971; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS','sans-serif'">Thanimal,</span>

    <span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: #062971; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS','sans-serif'">Forget the Olympics. I am not really clear on all the details but understand we have spent a lot of $ and will never get there. What water skiing needs to do is get back to its roots. ZO does not help this and dreaming about being on NBC for 5 minutes during the Olympics does not grow the sport. We suffer from being inaccessible and elitist. We need to be more accessible. </span>

    <span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: #062971; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS','sans-serif'">INT kicks USAWS’s ass in this regard. </span>
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>

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  • skidawgskidawg Posts: 3,413 Mega Baller
    Olympics, not happening, we don't have the money to bribe the IOC to get in, skiing Is shrinking because (this is my personal experience) when we have private lakes we typically keep them that way mainly because of time constraints, but one of our members is completely closed off to expanding our club to new members or any clinics for newbs, etc. Off my wagon
    NWA....Heaven on earth!
  • scokescoke Posts: 710 Crazy Baller
    Yawn
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