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Class C scoring

6balls6balls Posts: 5,327 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
I have lost my ability to score class C's. I've done so for 30 plus years, and personally have tourney scores into 39. The last number of years life has gotten in the way of me running a lot of tourneys. Injuries, family issues, work.

Having said that this fall right after being cleared from injury that roasted my season I skied 6 rounds at skiwatch. I changed lines on the start dock, I boat judged, I tower judged, I made gas and food runs, I hung signage etc. I assistant judged during the class "R" where Mechler, Parrish and Regina skied.

I'm now "expired" and need to take classes so I can count buoy scores at a class C???? I'll try to remember that in between renewing my basic life support, advanced cardiac life support, advanced trauma life support, advanced life support in obstetrics, pediatric advanced life support and neonatal resuscitation in addition to my Medical Board Cert modules/exams and keeping up with work/family. Side note but given the above I also don't qualify to be "safety" at a class C, either.

I'm not trying to throw the hey I'm a good skier card out there and the doctor card out there perse...just venting about some regs that need change in USA w-ski for class C (though I'd argue the safety thing for class R...if I'm good enough for you in the ER I think I'm good enough for you on-site).

In medicine this happened with DOT driver exams...the increasing regulation and extra classes required just for the privilege of doing what I've always done and was trained to do isn't worth it. In the end this hurts the drivers.

When we don't have judges/officials it will further hurt the skiers. More change needed....
Dave Ross--die cancer die


  • dchristmandchristman Posts: 1,098 Mega Baller
    edited January 2018
    Did you check the judges policy manual? There are hardship exemptions for renewals. You also don't have to do all the dock starting stuff if you're in the top 50% of level 8 if you do need to retest for regular.
    Is it time to ski, yet?
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,327 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @dchristman will check it out thanks for the insights...the dock starting stuff I do just to help out...similar with food and/or gas runs. Bottom line I don't judge cuz it's exciting, either, I do it to help make the show go. Unnecessary barriers to fun are just that, unnecessary.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • bigtex2011bigtex2011 Posts: 499 Crazy Baller
    Torn.. It's really not that hard to become an assistant judge. It sounds like you really don't have the time with all your medical testing and such. Which is ok by the way. Just become an assistant when you can. My wife is a regular judge. I usually do the assistant route about every other year.

    My thought is to cut down on the number of judges to run a class c.

  • Pat MPat M Posts: 723 Crazy Baller
    I believe at one time if you had a certain rating you automatically qualify for being an assistant judge. I may be wrong.
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,381 Mega Baller
    Is lawyers and insurance companies that make this shit up. Its stupid but there is no way to negotiate this crap with the pencil pushers
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
  • dave2balldave2ball Posts: 672 Crazy Baller
    And you wonder why 3 event waterskiing is dying. It’s for reasons above.
  • skierjpskierjp Posts: 784 Crazy Baller
    I’ve held a Senior rating as a Slalom Judge, Senior Driver Slalom and Senior Driver Trick for many years. I ruptured my Achilles and broke my Tibia on July 29th. I received a notification from AWSA that I was losing my Senior ranking as Trick driver and being downgraded to Regular because I didn’t meet the required amount of Trick tournaments. Crazy!
  • dave2balldave2ball Posts: 672 Crazy Baller
    @BoneHead,@6balls both are right about the medical aspect of USA waterski. I am a firefighter/EMT and a past paramedic. Forcing us to go through the clinic classes is not fair or right as long as we keep the certifications current. When you know more the the instructor you should be waived from the clinic. It seems that the people in charge of the programs fear the people who have more experience and knowledge tjen they do.
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,327 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    I can see where trick scoring could be pretty tough for someone good...they sure move fast. For slalom, though? I could teach a reasonably intelligent non-skier sitting with me in one round on the tower and I bet they would almost always get it right.

    Wouldn't it make sense that if I expire I need to go sit on a tower with a current judge for a round, call some scores, have them sign something and then call it good?
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • dchristmandchristman Posts: 1,098 Mega Baller
    edited January 2018
    @skierjp that sounds like a hardship to me.

    My 2 cents on the safety director thing. I would argue that medical training shouldn't be required at all to be a safety director. The primary role of the safety director should be to mitigate risk of injury to the skiers and officials, not to be a first responder. The director is responsible for ensuring that trained persons are on site. Drivers, boat judges, and pickup boat operators are more likely to be first to respond to an injury than the safety director.

    The safety directory training is important for learning the processes and procedures needed for the management role of safety director, not the role of first responder.
    Is it time to ski, yet?
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,353 Crazy Baller
    @6balls I understand where you're coming from, but go ahead and apply for the hardship exemption. Contact Melanie at HQ and explain your situation. She'll work with you, I'm sure. @skierjp I lost my trick rating too. My feeling is, if you can do a satisfactory job of pulling skiers through 39, an equivalent trick rating oughta come come for free! Let's face it, with ZO, pulling tricks ain't exactly rocket surgery.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,327 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @leonL I sent them an email will see what happens.

    @dchristman I took the didactic safety course, then got injured and wasn't able to complete it by assisting on-site. The course had very little about the duties of safety director other than minimal in passing without much detail...I recall more in the course about first aid, basic cpr, and then "in the water" drills on how to safely roll and backboard a skier with in-line spine protection (cold n rainy that day, too). Just about the only thing I got out of it was the proper technique for the rolling of a skier with jump skis on.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 2,698 Mega Baller
    edited January 2018
    My trick driving rating got downgraded as well. Oops!!
    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
  • IlivetoskiIlivetoski Posts: 1,186 Crazy Baller
    I have always been somewhat confused at how hard it is to get an assistant rating for slalom (I don’t trick or jump so I can’t speak on any of that). If you can run 28 off I would think you are capable of calling scores at a class C tournament
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,327 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    So if I'm level 8 why expire my rating? If I dock started at class C, judged a class C from tower and boat, and the next day tower judged the class R sitting alongside the world record holder's father in the current ski season in addition to being level 8 why expire my rating? (Granted I'm holding level 8 by a thread--2 tourney score only penalty and skied on a hardware laden leg, not fully rehabbed, on a new binding set-up.)

    OK, I'm done complaining. I think this just caught me at one of those "it's one more thing" kinda moments. Bottom line I try to help at the tourneys I attend and don't want to go to the next one and be like, yeah...I can't tower for ya I'm expired. I'll find the best way to get it done thanks for all of the thoughtful replies.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • DirtDirt Posts: 1,618 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    edited January 2018
    I lost my trick judge rating. I'll get it back in case horton comes up this way and decides to trick.
    I learned everything I know not to do from Horton
  • BRYBRY Posts: 585 Crazy Baller
    @6balls My post was to @livetoski specifically, his stating becoming an AJ too hard. I get annoyed with pile-on anti AWSA threads when undeserved. I think it is bad for the sport. People on the fence as to trying a tournament or two get turned off. Lots of lurkers on this forum, big microphone. Tournaments are fun. They really are.

    But to your situation, don't know. If your Level 8 your Level 8, even if somehow by .01 buoy, you know that. But no classes (clinics) required for AJ. Really just have to do the 4 in 2 years, the idea to keep everyone current as there have been and are significant rule changes coming and going lately.

    What would I recommend for you? Send Melanie at AWSA an e-mail. Staying AJ should be straight forward as you meet the level 8 requirement.
  • KelvinKelvin Posts: 1,187 Mega Baller
    @JeffSurdej Why expire an assistant judge rating for anyone that is Level 8? It makes no sense. Along that same line of reasoning, why not make all Level 8 skiers assistant judges automatically?
    Kelvin Kelm, Lakes of Katy, Katy Texas
  • JeffSurdejJeffSurdej Posts: 624 USAWS Official
    @Kelvin In other words anyone level 8 is not required to do maintenance. right?
    AWSA President
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,327 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @BRY point well taken. Yes tourneys are fun for any non-posting folk who may be interested. Any large organization is also likely to have rules/regs.

    As I thought about this longer and thought about my own profession it's like OK I need to do ATLS/ACLS etc even though I cover ER and practice this stuff (for real) regularly. Office-only physicians do not often encounter codes blues/trauma's but need the same reviews as it may happen to them. In many cases review schedules are not made for the top denominator but we all have to abide by them.

    @JeffSurdej I didn't do 4 tourneys in the last 2 ski seasons thus the expiration...I've had 3 surgeries in 4 years. Having said that I judged before my expiration at two tourneys in the current year and am still a level 8 skier based on those two tourneys. If I signed up for a tourney tomorrow and went to ski those who know me may stick me in a tower only to realize I'm no longer qualified.

    Not sure the answer and I don't mean to make it about me and a particular situation. I was a little salty when I got the expiration email and probably wrote too soon afterward. After some further thought I understand the bigger picture better.

    Thinking more positively and about process; if there is a chance that I can become out of date (not necessarily expired) due to newer rules/ could this education be conveyed electronically with a sign off that keeps me current? If keeping up to date is important suppose I HAD judged just one more tourney in the last year...the way it sits now I would be exempt from any such education.

    Just thinking out loud not being critical.

    @lpskier posted a quick but important spot check. If someone had just kept up with the tourney judging requirements with no education they could continue on...oblivious to even the criteria he proposed. Is that good? The criteria proposed are easily explained so where is an easy place to read the nuts and bolts of what is slalom scoring?

    Anything that makes staying a (competent) judge and becoming a (competent) judge easier while maintaining integrity is certainly worth thinking about and a little brain-storming.

    Thanks @JeffSurdej, @BRY, @lpskier and everyone else who chimed in with insights following my post written in frustration.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • DragoDrago Posts: 1,588 Mega Baller
    @6balls the rule book?
    SR SL Judge & Driver (“a driver who is super late on the wheel and is out of sync”)
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,327 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @drago fair point...I guess my thought process there was cliffs notes summary version--it was a kinda half-baked thought
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 2,901 Mega Baller
    My .02 cents worth.
    Keep in mind we are talking about the AWSA and not USA Waterski. AWSA is the governing entity for competitive 3 event watersking. USA Waterski is the unnecessary burdensome overseer of AWSA!

    Loosing an officials rating due to unforeseen circumstances, AWSA has in place a pretty good system for requesting and receiving a hardship.
    As far as judges eligibility, just because some one is a level 8 does not and should not be a requirement to continue being an official with out a periodic system of continued education such as a clinic. Judges and scorers can now participate in online clinic's to maintain their ratings. Drivers do not have that availability hopefully this will change also.

    Safety, I too think that professional health care workers should have an easier avenue to become a safety director. However a in/on water clinic for accreditation should be mandatory. knowing how to handle an injured skier in the water must be taught. Most new safety personnel are clueless in this aspect.
    My only beef with the safety program is that many times a safety director will assign a volunteer person or boat judge with out these accreditation's to be the "Vested Swimmer"! Some may even be adolescent minor's doing this. The event boat should not be the first respond-er especially in the jump event.

    We do have many ludicrous policy's, one of these is that long time regular or senior slalom drivers are not allowed to test for a trick driving rating with out jumping through hoops to do so. A regular or senior driver should only have to take a written test to acquire a regular trick drivers rating and for a senior driver to loose or be down graded as trick driver also is a ludicrous policy.

    The powers to be in our sport have addressed many challenges in maintaining and becoming officials however common sense still has to take a back seat to ladder climbing influential ideology personnel in many cases.

    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.

  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,823 Mega Baller
    The real problem: How do we ensure that smart, informed, nad capable people are allowed to continue being officials?

    Regardless of level of rating, slalom officials need to know how to apply the current rules to all possible competitive situations. At least every 2 years there seems to be some little rule tweak that sends domino implications or confusion through the judging ranks. Some changes from years ago are still applied incorretly by long-time buoy callers.

    It would be helpful if the community of judges/scorers would put together their top 10 miscalled/misinterpreted/confusing/difficult judging scenarios. AWSA Rules Committee should review those and definitively clarify how to judge/score them. This Top 10 list should be required curriculum for all officials to retain their ratings. Further, this knowledge refresh should be available on-line, by simply watching a video of those top 10 scenarios and solution, then taking a simple quiz to confirm understanding. (I know their are on-line clinic options already, but this is different. Should be short, crisp, and reviewed/validated annually.)
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,381 Mega Baller
    There was a discussion item on this topic for the last BOD meeting, does anyone know what the outcome was?
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
  • dave2balldave2ball Posts: 672 Crazy Baller
    @Jody_Seal I agree 100%. AWSA training water training video has no medical backing. No endorsement from American heart association or Red Cross. The video is a lifeguard from many years ago teaching how to stabilize a possible neck back or spinal fracture. A person who does not deal with this on a daily basis may do permanent damage. That safety person who puts somebody in C-spine precautions and does possible further damage may not fall under the Good Samaritan law.
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