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Dual Lock

HortonHorton Posts: 28,965 Administrator
edited September 2007 in Skis Fins Bindings
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<font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size="2" color="#000000">If I want the strongest hold possible what Dual Lock do I use? Is this the right page?</font>
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<a href="http://www.itapestore.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=23"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size="2" color="#000000">http://www.itapestore.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=23</font></a>
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<font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size="2" color="#000000">What about the clear stuff?</font>
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Comments

  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,965 Administrator
    edited September 2007
    <p>
    I am reading this on the 3M web site and it looks like Type 250 to Type 400 is strongest. (Not 400 on 400) Anybody have a comment?
    </p>
    <p>
    <a href="http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?66666UuZjcFSLXTtMxT25Xf2EVuQEcuZgVs6EVs6E666666--">http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?66666UuZjcFSLXTtMxT25Xf2EVuQEcuZgVs6EVs6E666666--</a>
    </p>
    <p>
    See last paraghaph under product description
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
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  • WeappaWeappa Posts: 65 Baller
    <font face="Arial" size="1">
    <p align="left">
    John - the way I read note b on page 2, type 400 to 400 is the highest strength but not recommended due to part damage or ergonomic issues.  The 250 to 400 is the highest performance recommended.  I've just obtained some 400 and plan on playing with a couple of square inches of it this fall, as I had a number of late summer pre-releases running 250-250.
    </p>
    <p align="left">
    I would be interested in what others are using for coverage compared to their weight and ability.  For example, I'm a 195 lb 32-off skier, using 60 square inches of 250-250 and 12 square inches of 250-400.  It would be an interesting database and may help others to dial in the amount of dual lock to use.  I would be glad to build the dbase given input from others.
    </p>
    <p align="left">
     
    </p>
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  • DaveDDaveD Posts: 881 Crazy Baller
    <p>
    John,
    </p>
    <p>
    What are you doing with Dual Lock, I thought you were working on a system with Wiley's and carbon heal inserts.  By the way, did Eric send you a couple yards of that carbon or is he hoardin' it?  Dave
    </p>
  • Alberto SoaresAlberto Soares Posts: 316 Solid Baller
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: #062971; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'">As I also had some unexpected releases with 250x250, I tried to use 400x400. It is real hard to put them together, but they do hold tight. In my last 2 dual lock changes I have been using 140x400 and found that it is a great combination, haven’t had any releases since that. I put them all around the plate and also 2 or 3 stripes in between.</span>
    </p>
  • Chuck_DickeyChuck_Dickey Posts: 1,462 Crazy Baller
    <p>
    I see the 170 to 250, 250 to 400 250 to loop but do not see the rating for 250 to 250.  Someone please help this blind man see?
    </p>
    <p>
    Interesting to read the attachment techniques. 24 to 72 hours before use or disengagement!  I press it down with my thumb and ski fairly soon.  Never had the glue fail and only unexpected releases were because I did not get it reengaged properly after an expected release.
    </p>
  • <p>
    ive just replenished mine from Schnitz's site.
    </p>
    <p>
    he seems as cheap as anywhere ive seen for it aswell, unless you are buying it by the mile and not the yard!
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
    <p>
    As for the amount i use, ive a strip down either side of the plate, two cross strips and the front and two at the back and 3 in the middle.
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
    <p>
    All 250 and ive not had it release yet?!
    </p>
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,975 Infinite Pandas
    <p>
    Kirk's new Goode with my funky plate prereleased jumping off the swim step. This was after a fall generated release - I didn't get it locked 100%. So I screwed the ends down with my gatorade release. It will take a pretty good fall to blow the plate off now but it is not likely to prerelease. A serious fall should not destroy skis or boots - just gatorade lids. My experience with the trick skis is that my knee is much stronger than the hardware. A fluke fall can get you anyhow.
    </p>
    <p>
    Eric
    </p>
    <p>
    PS Dave, a roll of the carbon is in Bako for John. But Forrest Fisher is going to snip some for a ski idea he has. There should be plenty left over. And part of my roll is going to build a sitski for the disabled skiers. Your material is going to very good use by a lot of people. Thanks.
    </p>
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,965 Administrator
    I am talking about this because I am looking to use the new Goode plate to mount my trusty Wileys on
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  • Director DarwinDirector Darwin Posts: 381 Baller
    <p>
    John:
    </p>
    <p>
    The SJ3560 clear 250 is what we've used the past two years at the ski test.  I use a combination of 250 and 400.  I put ONLY clear 250 on the ski and use two strips of 250 down the sides of my plate and a 2/1 ration of 250 and 400 at the front, middle and rear.  Doesn't pre-release - in fact, doesn't release at all (yet).
    </p>
    <p>
    In the bulk you will need to purchase, the I-Tape store is your best bet.   Over 25 yards, it's $2.22 per foot which is $1 less per foot than Schnitz.  And they ship FAST.
    </p>
  • Chuck_DickeyChuck_Dickey Posts: 1,462 Crazy Baller
    <p>
    I bought some from I-tape and another place called  Fastenation and from both places the product was coiled too tight/small causing the liner tape to pucker, looked coougated, which allowed air to dry the adhesive on about 50% of the tape.  Waste of time to send it back, I-tape replaced it.
    </p>
    <p>
    Since then, I buy the 250 black on black from Schnitz.  Good price and delivery and I like the idea we are keeping money within the skiing community.  I usually buy 20 yards at a pop.  I replace it 2 to 3 times a season. Also, use Schnitzer's removal method.
    </p>
  • auskierauskier Posts: 457 Baller
    <p>
    <strong>"I am looking to use the new Goode plate"</strong>
    </p>
    <p>
    there is a new goode plate? anyone care to give a bit more info please?
    </p>
    Toby
  • bhsbhs Posts: 280 Baller
    Yeah, John would you mind explaining how you plan to use the new good plate?
  • thagerthager Posts: 4,884 Mega Baller
    <p>
    I cut a front puzzle piece on a duel lock 250 held HDPE plate that was thicker than the boot plate and cut to overlap the boot plate by 1/8 of an inch. Never had a Front pre-release but did release when it needed to. Just  can't seem to get used to hard shells.
    </p>
    Stir vigorously then leave!
  • Director DarwinDirector Darwin Posts: 381 Baller
    <p>
    I've purchased from I-Tape for 4 years with no issues but we buy in much greater volume so the "wound too tight" issue really doesn't impact us.  At 25-50 yards per order, I-Tape is 1/3 less than Schnitz or anyone else.
    </p>
    <p>
    jhd
    </p>
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,965 Administrator
    The new Goode plate is a single plate that you mount your wileys to (minus the Wiley plates) and then attach to the ski.
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  • bhsbhs Posts: 280 Baller
    Horton,

    Sounds cool! I was wondering if you would be able to do that. Wasn't sure if the carbon was strong enough, thought there might be to much flex. Could you do the same with HO bindings and get rid of the plate?
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,965 Administrator
    No No not Carbon. I have not done the R&D but do not like the idea. Goode is using AL. Erb and I are also working on G-10 plates. Yea you could do any of it but it might be a LOT of work. 
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  • bhsbhs Posts: 280 Baller
    I am assuming that by Al you mean aluminum? And my next question would be, is the Goode plate pre-drilled for willeys? Last question, are you working on a plate to sell? Thanks
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,965 Administrator
    Yes,Yes and unsure
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  • DWDW Posts: 2,139 Mega Baller
    <p>
    John,
    </p>
    <p>
     Not using carbon binding plates due to fastener pull through?  Or some other reason?  
    </p>
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,965 Administrator
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">In my experience and reading Carbon is not strong in terms of abrasion. (screws not pulling though) As far as a material choice goes I do not see the trade off. The Carbon plates cost more, weigh less and I do not see how it is a performance advantage. G10 on the other hand is a little heavier but is great in abrasion (I think). </font>
    </p>
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  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,975 Infinite Pandas
    Lighter is always better! Dave took care of the cost issue for John's R&D. Abrasion is not the right word but your explanation is clear and correct regarding carbon and pull through. I'll try a kevlar plate next time I'm playing with layups. Kevlar is light, tough and won't affect the flex as much as carbon or aluminum. John maybe you could market a carbon/kevlar plate?

    The Goode plate that they sent with Kirk's new ski was really heavy G10. After spending so much money for a light ski I couldn't bear to weight it down that much. Kirk's binding plate is 1/8" ABS. Light, flexible, tough and cheap. I've used ABS a lot and I can't remember any pull through. Lots of cracked plates after time but I always got reasonable service out of the plates. The plate is too flexible to get the duallock to engage anywhere that the hammer can't reach so placement of the tape is critical. And Kirk's plate did release before his rubber boots.

    I'm pretty excited about the duallock/gatorade screw hybrid. Only a couple screw holes for the ski and nice light holddown power. ABS or kevlar might be lighter than aluminum and be an easier fix after a release. Good discussion.
    Eric
  • GMCGMC Posts: 105 Baller
    <p>
    I think the word you're looking for is "shear".  I'm not a materials guy but I wouldn't think that carbon fiber is good in shear, it excels in tension. 
    </p>
    <p>
    I don't disagree with Eric's "lighter is better" - other things being equal (except cost of course!)  My Goode/Fluid Motion setup isn't light and in comparison it's shocking how light the Goode/Powershell setup is.  After helping a friend set one of those up recently, I'd almost consider going back but I have bad memories of Dual-Loc replacement and I kinda like those substantial boots around my feet now. 
    </p>
  • DWDW Posts: 2,139 Mega Baller
    <p>
    We use Kevlar for the impact areas on race cars (nose and tail), so it is not only good in abrasion, but also good for impact thus not cracking but rebounding to the original shape after an impact.  Screw retention to the boot would be the issue with all the compsite plates, if you look at how all the formula car constructors attach wings to the end plates, you will see the bigger surface area washers that are used.
    </p>
    <p>
     There is a very abrasion resistant  product called Jabroc that is what the rub plank is made of on an F1 car.
    </p>
  • <div class="CommentBody">
    <p>
    AB,
    </p>
    <p>
    If my memory serves me, a while back you posted on one of the boards your method for applying Dual Lock to the ski and the plate on your Powershells.  I recall it being quite effective.
    </p>
    <p>
    Is there anyway you could type up that synopsis again?  I searched for it on Nicholls and I think with the board change, it's gone.
    </p>
    <p>
    If it wasn't you, I apologize.
    </p>
    <p>
    Thanks in advance.
    </p>
    </div>
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,232 Mega Baller
    <p>
    Not me.  I jumped off hardshells that were like powershells when they darn near tore my foot off in a bad fall.
    </p>
    <p>
    I might have seen the article you are referring to though.  I think they mated the dual loc together first, then installed on the plate, and then left mated, and attached to the ski.  I think the inference was that when the dual is mated together, it is not quite in the same postion when applied unmated.
    </p>
    <p>
    Does that sound like what you were looking for?
    </p>
    <p>
    Speaking of ankles, I jammed mine about 3 weeks ago in a skip/hookup slide out and might be left to reading these forums for the rest of the year.  Major jam and roll on the "inside" of my back ankle.  No binding would have prevented that, IMO.  I am about ready to get it xrayed, it just doesn't want to get any better.
    </p>
    <p>
    AB 
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
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