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Promo Boat Tournament Credit........Opinion Please

EricKelleyEricKelley Posts: 286 Crazy Baller
Should a towboat manufacturer receive credit for pulling a tournament if the boat used was a privately owned boat? This has been discussed in the Southern Region Council recently. Background, a certain manufacturer was given credit for pulling our Kentucky State Tournament when a 2010 privately owned boat was used. The brand is not important to the discussion. I think that we should have data on the amount of promos that are pulling tournaments so that we can reward the manufacturers for supporting us. With diminishing numbers of promos in certain areas this is important. Opinions.
BobHConordvskiing
«13

Comments

  • MuskokaKyMuskokaKy Posts: 413 Solid Baller
    I understand the question and debate but if someone is giving the manufacturer credit; I guess the question is who is giving them that and why....
    If the manufacturer is taking credit that’s a whole different story.
    I guess is comes down to what is it you don’t like about it; and if it’s just the principle of the matter...well I think you just have to get over it. We are in a diminishing sport. Let’s take any opportunity to bring it back into any spotlight we can. Don’t see that it can hurt your tourney in any way..

    Theres another thread about the sport dying and all that....I guess we as a sport and community want the boat manufacturers to take credit and to sell as many DD’s as they can and not be taken over by v-drives.

    I’d hope if the manufacturer did take credit they’d supply you with a promo the following year..
  • BobHBobH Posts: 15 Baller
    Horton is spot on.

    The Scorer has no choice whether to put the info on any boat used in a tournament into WSTIMS. That's a mandate. It's also a requirement to put in all the other info, like insurance, events pulled, etc. Otherwise, the Scorer hasn't followed the rules and supposedly that puts the sport at risk with the insurance company. Once that info goes into the scoring program - the manufacturer gets credit. I know this for a fact.

    Everyone keeps talking the dying sport syndrome, I don't buy that. We have become smaller because of the huge cost. Not everyone can afford to buy $80K boats, property on private ski sites, and $2K slalom skis. Don't equate water skiing to golf and other sports with a few million members. Try Polo. That's also a very expensive sport and has about 5000 members, less than us, but they're doing very well. Let's just be happy with the size we are. If any of the current manufacturers don't want to support us, then let them sell their preferred "wake sport" boats at the higher margin, and forget about who got them to where they are. There will be a manufacturer that will make boats for us. I'll support them.
    wilecoyotelpskierBG1RichardDoane
  • skierjpskierjp Posts: 760 Crazy Baller
    Yes, the manufacture receives credit. It happens in Florida all the time. The scorer enters into the computer which tow boats are at the tournament which then goes to AWSA. Think about tournaments like Travers, Swiss, Pickos, Bennett’s, and even collegiate tournament that use the school boat. These boats are not considered “Promo Boats”
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,335 Mega Baller
    What does credit get the boat manufacturer? My understanding is its only purpose is to "allow" them the "privledge" of pulling Regionals and Nationals. Once they "qualify" additional credit provides them no incremental value as the pulls at Nationals are not provided proportionately. This is Correct Crafts beef and may be why they are dialing back their promo program.
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
  • dave2balldave2ball Posts: 634 Crazy Baller
    @skierjp is 100% correct. I believe the question was more about should the MFG get credit if a personal boat pulled the tournament with no ties to ski schools or colleges.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,324 Administrator
    edited February 2018
    @dave2ball I'm unaware if there is a actual technical definition of what is or is not a promo boat. For this discussion I would say that any boat who's owner has a business relationship with a factory is a promo boat. Examples would be ski schools, universities, pro athletes and Knuckleheads like me. The Bumblebee is not a promo boat in the normal sense but it goes to tournaments and clearly Mastercraft should get credit for it.

    On the other hand, if I take @Rico's 196 over to SkiWest for Junior development Nautique should not get credit for it.

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  • dbutcherdbutcher Posts: 331 Solid Baller
    I believe @disland is correct. The number of tournament events required to qualify for Regionals (and ultimately Nationals) is low enough that the personal vs promo boats issue probably doesn't really matter. Hopefully, manufacturers see the additional other values in supplying promo boats.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,324 Administrator
    @dbutcher I'm not exactly sure how many tournaments Centurion is going to pull this year but they are certainly on the bubble. They paid the fee to be a approved boat in 2018 even though they are currently in transition to potentially bring out the boat as a Supreme in 2019.

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  • RAWSkiRAWSki Posts: 643 Crazy Baller
    What is the value in not giving a boat manufacturer credit? I understand some feeling a private boat is different from a promo but there is no reason to not record which boat pulled an event. Is the thinking to punish the manufacturers into more involvement? All four have made significant investments in really great AW$A approved 3 event boats not to mention title sponsoring several really great events each year .

    I have to wonder what came first the ski tournament or the promo boat?

    By the way @Horton your lovely yellow tub is definitely a promotional boat.
    eleeski
  • EricKelleyEricKelley Posts: 286 Crazy Baller
    edited February 2018
    The value lies in the manufacturers reward for supplying a tournament boat. Is it fair for 1 manufacturer who spent the money to get the same reward as a manufacturer who did not.
    If I was the promo director for the supplying manufacturer, that would not sit well with me. I don't think of this as penalizing a manufacturer. It is rewarding the companies who are supporting the tournaments.
    It is important that scorers keep record of the actual boat used in events. Could add a Manufacturer Supplied checkbox that would be used for "credits."
    It is also our only way to collect data on what is happening with tournament towboats throughout the country. What is happening in the South is not what is happening in the East and West.
    If we are afraid to keep up with this we are a bunch of soccer moms who think everyone needs a trophy.
    The manufacturers spend a lot of money and time to bring these boats to tournaments for us. I am thankful for this and they need acknowledgement for their efforts and investments.
    HortonRAWSki
  • MuskokaKyMuskokaKy Posts: 413 Solid Baller
    @Horton @BobH , I get it, if your bring YOUR boat its YOU that is supporting it, and thats great....Buts no one is going to say " Nate set a new record behind @Horton" no one cares who's driving ( except a few extreme diehards here) or who owns the boat. Last driver talk i heard was with chad scott and nate for that record that didn't quite make it...For us out here who actually drop 100k ( in Canada) on a boat all i want to know which brand is setting records.. couldn't care less if your tourney boat was owned by promo or personally...
  • dave2balldave2ball Posts: 634 Crazy Baller
    edited February 2018
    @Horton I agree with you. I believe the word promo boat is referring to what we consider a normal promo. No ties to a ski school. In this thread. Example I buy a boat from a dealer and I am asked to use it in a tournament I think the boat should not get credit. If you have business relationship with the factory then yes the boat should get credit.
    Horton
  • waterbeatwaterbeat Posts: 14 Baller
    If the tournament scorebook, in addition to recording which brands of boats were used, also recorded whether or not the boat was a promo boat, it would be possible to generate some interesting reports on how well the manufacturers are actually supporting events with promo boats.
    RAWSkiBobH
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,937 Infinite Pandas
    I believe that the year of the boat needs to be entered into the scorebook. Since all promos should be the current year, any older boat could be considered an owner boat.

    Some owners have enough brand loyalty that it is a factor in bringing their boat. Getting their brand into Regionals or Nationals so they can ski behind it is important. Maybe it's good that the manufacturers aren't the only ones that can influence boat selection - especially given the recent disarray of the promo programs. The "old boat" rule is in effect because of lack of manufacturer support.

    I'll give you slalomers a 196 if you give the trickers a 2011MC at Nationals. Shall we flood the tournaments to qualify the sweet old boats?

    Eric
    randy meny
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,324 Administrator
    @eleeski there was a 2017 boat in Newberry last year that was used for tournaments that was absolutely not a promo boat. That manufacturer should not get credit.

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    BobH
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,937 Infinite Pandas
    @Horton The SDSU boat is a couple years old and is supported by Nautique. Not a perfect system but it is in place.

    Also, I question why you think the manufacturer doesn't deserve credit? If the boat only pulled the owner's division, you are absolutely right. I have seen this and it sucks. But if the boat got used, lots of skiers were exposed to it and there were no issues, that's the reason for the whole credit thing. We need the skiers to experience the different pulls so they are ready for the big tournaments.

    Eric
    skierjp
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,349 Crazy Baller
    edited February 2018
    My meager input is this. What is the real value to the mfg? Except for CP I can see no problem with the other three getting the credit they need for Regionals or Nationals. If at Nationals, with a relatively large number of observers, the boat brands pulled numbers proportional to the number of tournaments credits, there may be a different view of "value". But, I can see no reason for a mfg to get credit for pulling a tournament unless they put some "skin" in the game. Private owner who paid MSRP (probably no one does this) no factory discount, why should they get any credit? You can't get them to send a boat, so some owner is kind enough to provide one, and they receive credit? Huh?
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
    Bruce_ButterfieldBobHMarco
  • aupatkingaupatking Posts: 1,349 Mega Baller
    What credit does the private boat owner get for supplying his boat?
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,324 Administrator
    Hopefully someone will explain in full but the short version is:

    This "Credit" thing we are talking about is measuring the number of tournaments each manufacture sends boats to. It is about manufacture involvement. It is not a measure of ANYTHING else.

    Anyone who provides a private non-promo boat should be thanked, given beer, given free entry and perhaps a few dollars but that has nothing to do with the "Credit" being discussed here.

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  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,324 Administrator
    Thanks @dave2ball

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  • RichardDoaneRichardDoane Posts: 4,243 Mega Baller
    @horton - don't forget that an owner who brings a boat for an event, should also get a pull-out couch to sleep on instead of a free hotel room
    BallOfSpray Pacific Northwest Vice President of Event Management, aka "Zappy"
    Andre
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,214 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @Chad_Scott just nailed it. I would tag additional awesome to that post if I could.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • EricKelleyEricKelley Posts: 286 Crazy Baller
    Fact is that demand in market will dictate production of 3 event boats. Goodwill and charity to tournament waterskiing will have little to do with decision making with these businesses. They are in it to make a profit and that's it. That's what they are supposed to do and that's great. Being afraid to simply account for the use of private boats is a small thing. Why would they be against it?
    I have done my part in supporting Nautique. I have spent more on boats with them than I have in my house. I suspect those of you who actually plunk down your hard earned money have done the same over the years. I am happy to donate and use my private boat in tournaments. That's why I own it and I am happy to share it. Why should the manufacturer get credit for my charity?
    jcamp
  • Chad_ScottChad_Scott Posts: 473 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @Eric Kelley At the end of the day does it really matter one way or the other if the manufacturers get credit or not? Don’t we need all three manufacturers to pull Nationals as it is. Last year with 4 manufacturers I believe we had required 4 boats from each manufacturer at nationals.

    I am of the opinion that we (AWSA) need to keep the big 3 involved in supporting us. I know that it is a yearly discussion with the manufacturers. Proof from the route Correct Craft has taken this year. I am just of the opinion that we have much bigger problems to address other than whether a manufacturer gets credit. We are now also tasking USA Waterski to create another program to document the difference between a promo and personal boat.

    They don’t even have a programmer to address this level 10 mandate.

    New requirements/ additional rules is not a productive way to keep this sport going. Time to simplify things. Time to worry about spending all this type of energy to introduce people to waterskiing. Add numbers to our group and we will certainly add demand for boats, skis, vest, ropes and handles.

    Are we really looking to tell Malibu, Mastercraft or Correct Craft that one of these companies they did not qualify to pull nationals either way.
    mlange
  • BobHBobH Posts: 15 Baller
    Chad, I don't think anyone is wanting to drive away any of the manufacturers. I certainly don't. Malibu is not the company that's openly headed in the direction of less support, so maybe Malibu can step in and latch onto that share. Fine with me. That's the way the market works with everything else.

    The original post was to just find out how many tournaments the manufacturers are supporting and how many tournaments are being supported by individuals. The number of credits required to pull regionals and nationals are not very high anyway. It's not likely that the credit issue would cause any of the 3 to not qualify, unless their support dwindles to the point that they aren't really supporting the sport.

    Let's take the credit term out of the discussion, since it currently has no real impact anyway. Just knowing the answer to how tournaments are being supported doesn't harm the boat companies, does it? It wouldn't take a new program to do that. Dave Allen, who is the programmer for WSTIMS (not for the rankings list - that's a whole different subject) would just need to create one more box in the scoring program that notes if a boat used was (F) Factory or (I) Individual. It already keeps up with the make, model, engine, and propeller for every boat used. I can check with Dave, but keeping the WSTIMS program up to date with the never ending and more complex rules changes has been much more challenging than this.

    If we change the question just to ask where is the boat support coming from for tournaments. Is there harm in knowing that? That's not the same question as who is financially supporting USAWSWS. That's definitely a whole different topic.

    Boat tests anyone?

    Bob
    aupatking
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