“New School” is dead?

HortonHorton Posts: 31,525 Administrator
edited July 2010 in Technique & Theory
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<font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000">With all due respect to Mr. Brown and Mr. Winter: the ideas that are now known as New School or West Coast are so generally misunderstood and miss applied that it is simply time to put them to in a hole and cover <span> </span>with dirt. I am pretty confident that Mr. Brown and Mr. Winter never told any skier to squat as low as you can get though the wakes or contort your body into some yoga position at the ball.</font>
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<font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000">How many times have I read here and on other web sites stuff like: “I ride this ski (or not) because I am a New School skier ”, “I am really working on New School position” or “I do am not interested in that idea because it is New School (or not)”. <span> </span>Unfortunately, I generally read this from skiers who are nowhere near a level to grasp the error of what they are thinking.</font>
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<font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000">Just STOP! Get over it. No one really skis “Old School” anymore.<span>  </span>What is old school? Look 90 degrees across the lake though the wakes, reach as much and as early as you can, stomp on your front foot <span> </span>in pre-turn to SLOW <span> </span>the ski down so you can turn as hard as possible, and so on. If no one really skis “Old School” why is the more evolved skiing “New School”. To be fair when Mr. Brown and Mr. Winter first hit the scene it was radical and new.</font>
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<font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000">While I am on the subject, if you have a DVD made by a Hall of Fame skier <span> </span>(16 National Titles and 5 World Titles), I am not going to insult one of the greatest of all time but no. Stop. <span> </span>Just take that DVD and put it away. <span> </span>I do not even want to talk about it.</font>
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<font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000">Last thing: If you can get fresh Brown or Winter. Listen to every word. I am not slamming the original ideas. I am slamming all the missunderstandings.  </font>
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Comments

  • 94009400 Posts: 646 Crazy Baller
    I agree, that's why I ski "Southern Middle School"...... I would also like to thank Bruce Butterfield for unlocking what is really important in my very vacant but also overcrowded head.
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,355 Mega Baller
    No matter how you rotate and turn, the real battle that gets won or lost 6 times every pass is the war behind the boat. Every body type has advantages and disadvantages in this battle, whether you need to be opened or closed to the boat, bent knees squatting, or locked out, but agree that the elbows in and handle down to your center of gravity is the biggest key to winning. My cousin told me to keep the handle low about 32 years ago, no charge. As far as bending the knees, years of basketball and baseball pretty much have ruled that out at 51 years of age. Just get it done however I can.
  • AndreAndre Posts: 1,712 Mega Baller
    <p>
    "Just get it done..." 
    </p>
    <p>
    No points for style in that sport.
    </p>
    <p>
    I like that!
    </p>
    My ski finish in 16.95 ...but my ass is out of tolerance!
  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,525 Administrator
    Mmmm no I am not sure I am with that. You have to get stacked. How you get stacked is the question. Doing it with with huge knee bend is just impossible unless you are TW

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  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,986 Mega Baller
    <p>
    You wouldn't call what Jamie does "huge knee bend"?
    </p>
    <p>
    While I agree that "new school" and "old school" are terms that may never have made much sense, and now even less so, I still think there are some pretty different styles that skiers tune toward.
    </p>
    <p>
    The one I personally am most aware of is what Jamie calls "angulation," which I believe is a snow ski term.  My "understanding" (if you can call it that) of this is that you roll the ski onto edge with a bend at your ankle and by dropping your knees and/or hips "down" (toward the water and toward the inside of the turn).  If you ski that way, then hard-shells may almost be required -- a rubber boot will dampen much of that movement and your ski won't respond as desired.
    </p>
    <p>
    I tried out hard-shells for an entire season a few years back and I had serious problem on them.  In retrospect, I believe this is because any movement of my foot muscles or ankle joint is an accident -- I am not using that mechanism to direct the ski.  Roughly speaking I am using my entire lower body as one to direct the ski.  Rubber boots give me the right level of control; hard-shells amplify movement that I am making for balance -- NOT to direct the ski.
    </p>
    <p>
    So this disctinction matters, because it can determine what kind of equipment will work best for a given style.
    </p>
    <p>
    Importantly: even if everything I've said about angulation above is totally wrong, I still believe there is potential value in "naming" styles so that you can figure out what applies to you and what doesn't.  I don't think you are disagreeing with that, but seemed worth pointing out.
    </p>
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,525 Administrator
    My real point is that the terms have lost their meaning and a lot of skiers chase ideas that are misconceptions.

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  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,986 Mega Baller
    <p>
    100% true.
    </p>
    <p>
    I feared that from the first moment I read about New School, because the layman's interpretation seemed to be to sit down during the pull, which I had just spent the last 5 years STOPPING (and had picked up 5 full passes by doing so).
    </p>
    <p>
    It's very easy to severely misintrepret without a knowledgeable coach.
    </p>
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,355 Mega Baller
    Not sure about the stacking. Depends on the build of the skier. I have a 6'4"'ski partner that only gets his handle "in" by accident he is just butt strong and puts huge leverage on the line. Maybe that is farmstyle?
  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,525 Administrator
    I have to say of you are not stacked - you are not in the game. Watch ANY pro skier.

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  • Old MS AccoutOld MS Accout Posts: 2,114 Baller
    <p>
    Its all timing.
    </p>
    <p>
    If you can run 28 off, you know how to ski. It is just a matter of when you do all the things (that you already know how to do) needed at the right time.
    </p>
  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,525 Administrator
    I moved the Boobie comments so we can talk about skiing.

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  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,355 Mega Baller
    <p>
     
    </p>
    <p>
    No biggie, comments are cheap, pictures would have been tragic....<img src="http://www.ballofspray.com/vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-tongue-out.gif" border="0" alt="Tongue out" title="Tongue out" />
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  • jimbrakejimbrake Posts: 1,433 Mega Baller
    While we are getting away from terms, can we please get the f away from "toe side" and "heel side"? What, do we need to try to fit in with wakeboarding to be cool or something? Is that how we got started on that? JHC - our feet point forward. I get the concept of toeside/heelside, but we have a unique stance for a "board riding sport". We are more akin to snow skiing than wakeboarding, surfing, or skateboarding. Can we not stay with "onside" and "offside"? Are we afraid to say "offside" because it may be too negative a term for our sensitive ski psyches? My offside is my best turn (by far), but I don't know what else to call it other than my offside. I think I'm going to go with "big toe side" and "little toe side". I like turning on my big toe side and not my little toe side. Rant over.
    "...all of the basic fun banter"
  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,525 Administrator
    I use Toe Side and Heal Side because I think it is easier to understand. Could be wrong. Best thing we could do is kill all leftys. That would clear it up.

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  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,355 Mega Baller
    <p>
     
    </p>
    <p>
    Innie and outie?  Instep (offside/toeside) and outside (onside/Heal side) of front foot?
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
  • jimbrakejimbrake Posts: 1,433 Mega Baller
    <p>
    I don't know about AB and Horton, but I have toes on both sides of my feet and my heels are on both sides, too. WTheck do your feet look like? Please attach photos.
    </p>
    <p>
    We could kill the leftys, but that would suck 'cause me, one of my sons, and Chris Parrish are leftys.
    </p>
    "...all of the basic fun banter"
  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,525 Administrator
    You could make more kids

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  • jimbrakejimbrake Posts: 1,433 Mega Baller
    yeah. I better go practice.
    "...all of the basic fun banter"
  • h2odawg79h2odawg79 Posts: 598 Baller
    <em><strong>"Come on Guy's, -it's all ballbearings these days"...</strong></em> 
  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,525 Administrator
    <p>
    <em>Now you prepare that <strong>Fetzer valve</strong> with some 3-in-1 oil and some gauze pads.</em>
    </p>

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  • jipster43jipster43 Posts: 1,460 Crazy Baller
    At his clinic in June, Marcus was very clear that west coast wasn't a style, but rather a technique that you could apply to your own skiing. Regardless, the cornerstones were being stacked over your ski, being countered with your shoulders and hips, and supple with your knees. It seemed Marcus was a little concerned about the misconceptions associated with the term "West Coast Style" as well.

    He's the real deal when it comes to coaching though. It would be easy for one of these pros to just show up and go through the motions, but Marcus was 100% engaged. His movement analysis is incredibly honed. Nothing gets by him, and his remedies tended to be simple and easily digested. The combination of both Marcus and Jen makes their clinic an incredible value fo sho!

    JP :)
  • Thomas WayneThomas Wayne Posts: 550 New Baller
    edited July 2010
    <p>
    Sadly, Gregory McDonald died a couple of years ago - but Fletch lives on.
    </p>
    <p>
    That said, I see absolutely nothing wrong with the terms <em>onside </em>and <em>offside</em>.  If you have a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot_fetishism">toe & heel fetish</a> like Horton you can always consider that those terms could very easily be referring to the side you are leaning <em>onto </em>your toes (<strong>on</strong>side) and the side you are leaning <em>off </em>of your toes (<strong>off</strong>side).  As for the heel part of the fetish, JTH, you might have to be on your own with that one.
    </p>
    <p>
    TW
    </p>
  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 6,066 Mega Baller
    edited July 2010
    I have to admit the heel side/toe side always confused me.   I vote for onside/offside and I definitely need a refresher course.
    Mark Shaffer
  • thagerthager Posts: 5,392 Mega Baller
    On a ski I have a front big toe on the right and a left big toe in back, so now both turns are toeside and explains why I suck at this game!!
    Stir vigorously then leave!
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,297
    <div>
    I really believe that a lot of people confuse West Coast or New School with this supper compressed, twisted type position. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is all about efficiency of movement. It pertains to Center of Mass in the direction of travel that gives you EFFICIENT acceleration. In other words, it is not lean against the boat that gives you acceleration, but lean in the direction of travel that gives you acceleration.  Also, it is not angle that gives you speed, but speed that gives you angle.
    </div>
    <div>
    In Marcus's own words, he states the most efficient "New School" skier is Chris Parrish. Why, because he has no wasted movement. He uses counter rotation and COM Movement in the direction of travel. Being 6'5," inclination gives him the greatest leverage behind the boat. With a shorter person, such as Marcus, it is necessary to use angulation , with a lower center of gravity, to achieve his greatest leveraged position.
    </div>
    <div>
    I hope this may help to clear up some misconceptions.
    </div>
    <div>
    </div>
    <div>
    Best Regards,   ED
    </div>
    Special Thanks to Performance Ski and Surf and the Denali Adam's !!!
  • skibugskibug Posts: 2,160
    new school....old school....anyway you cut it, I am getting an "F"
    Bob Grizzi
  • skidawgskidawg Posts: 3,480 Mega Baller
    Toe v. Heel makes sense bc it is standard wo being l/r specific. "what, u been doin some stunt flyin or sumthin"
    NWA....Heaven on earth!
  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,525 Administrator
    <p>
    Ed,
    </p>
    <p>
    I totally agree. The problem is all the confusion
    </p>

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  • skidawgskidawg Posts: 3,480 Mega Baller
    Off v. On makes one sound good one bad, my toeside is ridiculous while my heel side causes my more trouble typically! Makes sense to re name
    NWA....Heaven on earth!
  • ScarletArrowScarletArrow Posts: 836 Crazy Baller
    Suddenly, I feel like singing...."Moon river!"
    Anthony Warren
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