Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

______________
12" White Stickers
______________
BallOfSpray $5 Donation
______________
BallOfSpray $10 Donation

Is it time to change the ¼ buoy rule?

HortonHorton Posts: 28,773 Administrator
edited May 2018 in Rules/Politics/Issues
Looking at the below image of JMac I am reminded of just how incredibly unlikely it is for a skier to actually score ¼ and even less likely it is for the judges to get it right.

At deep shortline skiers are traveling somewhere around 40 or 50 feet per second at the ball. To score ¼ ball the skier must lose the handle or fall in a space of LESS THAN 3 feet.

My proposal is that ¼ balls should only be awarded after video review and only when it effects a placement at a major event or a record.

Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

Connelly ★ Basta ★ DBSkis ★ Denali ★ Goode ★ Hobe Lake ★ MasterCraft

Masterline ★ McClintock's ★ Performance Ski and Surf ★ Reflex ★ Radar 

Stella Blue ★ Stokes ★ World WaterSki League

 

MattPozskiRazorRoss3Than_Boganz_skiermjnelson
«13

Comments

  • jedgelljedgell Posts: 352 Baller
    Mostly agree. I'd get rid of it completely, no sense in bringing the video review into it, have a run-off if necessary. Keep it simple, you either get a full buoy, or half. I'm just a hack trying to get through 35 off, but don't see any need for the 1/4 score.
    Justin Edgell - Bozeman, MT
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,773 Administrator
    @jedgell when you talk about world records at 41 and 43 off quarter buoys are legitimate increments of achievement. At Pro tournaments where there's money and prestige it is again a legitimate differentiator between performances. At your local Class C it's too complicated to get it right.
    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Connelly ★ Basta ★ DBSkis ★ Denali ★ Goode ★ Hobe Lake ★ MasterCraft

    Masterline ★ McClintock's ★ Performance Ski and Surf ★ Reflex ★ Radar 

    Stella Blue ★ Stokes ★ World WaterSki League

     

    JWebSki
  • JackQJackQ Posts: 321 Crazy Baller
    I may be in the minority but I disagree, I find 1/4 buoy called correctly in C tournaments more frequently than the larger tournaments. Some of the calls in last Masters were more than surprising. The difference even at my level between let's say 3 and 3 1/4 is huge.

    Watching live the buoy/pass is question at Swiss I questioned myself if it was a 1/4 or nothing, 1/2 buoy was not even in my thought process. As I could not know with any certainty, I would have given 1/4 buoy as the benefit goes to the skier. The critical question: was his front foot past the line (buoy/gate line) before the handle left his hand, clearly his ski never broke the 2,4,6 plane so 1/2 buoy it is not.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,773 Administrator
    @JackQ You are a pretty high level skier. As a skier who runs constantly into 39, I would assume you are more likely to actually score a 1/4 than most tournament skiers.

    I am sure I have scored a 1/4 in practice but I can not remember the last time and do not have think I have ever gotten a tournament score of a 1/4.

    Part of my thinking is that level 8 skiers and below skiers almost never actually score 1/4s.

    The other part of my thinking is that I just do not know how judges can be expected to consistently get the call right because
    1. a ligit 1/4 is so rare
    2. it happens in a tiny fraction of a second
    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Connelly ★ Basta ★ DBSkis ★ Denali ★ Goode ★ Hobe Lake ★ MasterCraft

    Masterline ★ McClintock's ★ Performance Ski and Surf ★ Reflex ★ Radar 

    Stella Blue ★ Stokes ★ World WaterSki League

     

    Than_Bogan
  • KelvinKelvin Posts: 1,187 Mega Baller
    Wasn't there a WR set at something like 1.25 at 43off where the skier actually stood up and rode away? I never understood how that is even possible because there is no way for the skier to stay outside the 2-4-6 buoy line for that length of time.
    Kelvin Kelm, Lakes of Katy, Katy Texas
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,773 Administrator
    @Kelvin under the current rules that is 100,000,000% impossible. Even at 28 off I do not think it is possible to ski away not not get the 1/2
    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Connelly ★ Basta ★ DBSkis ★ Denali ★ Goode ★ Hobe Lake ★ MasterCraft

    Masterline ★ McClintock's ★ Performance Ski and Surf ★ Reflex ★ Radar 

    Stella Blue ★ Stokes ★ World WaterSki League

     

  • JackQJackQ Posts: 321 Crazy Baller
    Agree, hard to ski away and get 1/4. Years ago when I skied in West region, Brian Hockenberry rounded [email protected] and broke forward but skied away with both hands on handle and was scored 2 1/4. I had to draw a diagram to explain to the judges that as the rope did not reach the buoy at 38, and as he had both hands on the handle, it was impossible to not earn 1/2 buoy.

    At 15 or 22 if you tried real hard you could stay outside buoy line and get a 1/4. Maybe an new challenge, what is the shortest line you can ski away and stay ouside buoy line until past next set of boat guides.
    Horton
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 2,698 Mega Baller
    edited May 2018
    I don’t agree that the 1/4 buoy Rule is hard to judge. I think that the hard part is knowing how to see a 1/4 buoy, paying attention and having the confidence to call what you saw.

    .
    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,586 Mega Baller
    Dump it!
    The confusion and errors it brings FAR outweigh the benefit of having that extra notch in incredibly rare situations.

    However, getting rid of the 1/4 doesn't really fix the judging problem because you still have to decide between 0 and 1/2 which is still an invisible line.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • liquid dliquid d Posts: 1,201 Mega Baller
    I disagree with John. If i see it live, I never miss the call. I've had many yard sales for that 1/4 bouy...you gotta be willing to pay the price.
    RichardDoane
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,353 Crazy Baller
    I think it should be done away with, at least at class c. I believe I disagree with @Bruce_Butterfield. My interpretation of the rule is if you hit the buoy, "significantly displace" the buoy you get nothing. Just my interpretation. I've seen 1/4 buoys given when the skier skis away and I believe that is patently impossible.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
    scotchipman
  • RazorRoss3RazorRoss3 Posts: 1,355 Mega Baller
    I'd have to agree, if hitting the buoy causes the yard sale then there was either major displacement of the buoy by smacking the snot out of it or your buoys are hard as a rock if they didn't displace from 150-200lbs hitting them at 40mph. It is certainly possible to yard sale at the ball without hitting the buoy though if you just came off the wake like a pile of flaming garbage but managed to get out side the ball before the tip of your ski pulled a submarine on you although that might break some "skiing position" rule
  • elrelr Posts: 302 Mega Baller
    As I said in the Swiss thread, I think we need something like the "Lexi Rule" that Golf adopted . . .

    "Also, just three weeks after Thompson was hit with the four-shot penalty, the USGA and R&A released a new Rules of Golf decision decision (34-3/10) limiting video evidence in two ways:

    1. If an infraction can’t be seen with the naked eye, there’s no penalty, even if video shows otherwise. "

    The event judges should make the call with only FULL SPEED video if available.
    Ed Rink - LSF Texas
  • jcampjcamp Posts: 837 Mega Baller
    This is the debate I think of every time someone says "how hard is it to count to 6?" while complaining about the slalom judge application/approval process.
    Than_BoganBruce_ButterfieldDrago
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,586 Mega Baller
    @jcamp Another reason simplification would be good!
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    RazorRoss3
  • The_MSThe_MS Posts: 5,528 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    You should only get a 1/4 ball if you tear your achlllies.
    Shut up and ski
    andjulesAndrejayskiMrs_MS
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,381 Mega Baller
    I agree with @Bruce_Butterfield at 41 off it is almost a physical impossibility to score 1/4 buoy. Even using video unless the rule refines how many actual frames are required is it one frame 2 frames at what frame rate?
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,634 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    @disland actually as the rope gets shorter, the 1/4 buoy score gets more likely. 39 and 41 is where I would expect to see most of them. But again, letting go of the handle is rarely a legit score - you have to pay for that extra 1/4!
    I'm Ancient. WTH do I know?
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,773 Administrator
    @Bruce_Butterfield you're an engineer. Tell me what fraction of a second elapses if the skier is going 32 miles an hour and travels 3 ft. That is a rough approximation of the time a skier has to lose the handle or fall to earn the quarter ball.
    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Connelly ★ Basta ★ DBSkis ★ Denali ★ Goode ★ Hobe Lake ★ MasterCraft

    Masterline ★ McClintock's ★ Performance Ski and Surf ★ Reflex ★ Radar 

    Stella Blue ★ Stokes ★ World WaterSki League

     

  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,380 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    I have a great 1/4 buoy video but I can't seem to post it. What format is acceptable?
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
    AWSA Southern Region EVP
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,353 Crazy Baller
    @jcamp your comment concerning other people saying "how hard is it to count to 6"? We've all heard it said. Calling a proper 0, 1/4 or 1/2 isn't the half of it. If you're in the boat and an unusual situation arises do you know what to do? Kinda hijacking the thread but counting buoys isn't nearly all of it, especially if you're in the boat.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
    jcamp
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,381 Mega Baller
    @Bruce_Butterfield My hypothisis is based on the fact at shorter line the radius of the curve is shorter and the skier is going faster. Thus the time that the ski is exactly at buoy width is shorter meaning its either not yet at 1/4 or already 1/2 therefore almost impossible
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
    waterskicorey
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,773 Administrator
    edited May 2018
    I don't think there's any question as the rope get shorter skiers fall in the quarter buoy zone more often. I will also concede that as the Rope gets super short granting skiers the difference between quarter-and-a-half ball becomes more and more valid.
    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Connelly ★ Basta ★ DBSkis ★ Denali ★ Goode ★ Hobe Lake ★ MasterCraft

    Masterline ★ McClintock's ★ Performance Ski and Surf ★ Reflex ★ Radar 

    Stella Blue ★ Stokes ★ World WaterSki League

     

  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,634 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    edited May 2018
    @horton, you tell me what fraction of a second elapses when a major league pitcher throws a 90mph fast ball and the ball is in contact with the bat for a home run? Is there ever any doubt when the bat has made contact with the ball? My point is that in both cases, the amount of time is not relevant to a "good" or "bad" event.

    My opinion is that the only reason for a skier to "let go" of the handle is if he isn't going to get outside the buoy line - and no 1/4 score. If he is able to hold on to the handle and get around the buoy and keep going, it should be a minimum of 1/2. There is a very small window for a "real" 1/4 and in virtually all cases, that results in a yard sale. The judgement for that call is just as easy as knowing if the bat made contact with the fastball.

    @disland, the reasons (IMO) that 1/4 scores are more common with shorter ropes has to do with several factors:
    - faster speed at which the skiers are going
    - the margin of error to get around the buoy or not
    - knowing that the extra 1/4 will make a difference in placement, standings list or prize money causes the skier to go for it and sacrifice the body. If there is nothing important on the line, there is no reason to take the crash.

    WRT significantly displacing vs grazing, yes that's absolutely part of the judgement, but at most short lines when the 1/4 is in question, grazing the buoy is enough throw the skier off and cause the fall - that's what happens in most yard sales. If the skier runs straight over the buoy, "...move it significantly from its position or temporarily sink it", it would not be unusual for the skier to keep going. Again, all part of the judgement call, but thinking about it from the skier's perspective makes a better judge.

    I agree its not a perfect rule and is frequently judged incorrectly, but I have yet to hear a better suggestion.
    I'm Ancient. WTH do I know?
    klindy
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,773 Administrator
    @Bruce_Butterfield when the ball hits the bat there's no question what happenef. Nobody wonders if there was contact or not.
    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Connelly ★ Basta ★ DBSkis ★ Denali ★ Goode ★ Hobe Lake ★ MasterCraft

    Masterline ★ McClintock's ★ Performance Ski and Surf ★ Reflex ★ Radar 

    Stella Blue ★ Stokes ★ World WaterSki League

     

  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,634 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    @horton, that's exactly my point. No yard sale, no 1/4. Pretty easy to judge.
    I'm Ancient. WTH do I know?
    The_MSjayski
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,773 Administrator
    Hmmm
    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Connelly ★ Basta ★ DBSkis ★ Denali ★ Goode ★ Hobe Lake ★ MasterCraft

    Masterline ★ McClintock's ★ Performance Ski and Surf ★ Reflex ★ Radar 

    Stella Blue ★ Stokes ★ World WaterSki League

     

  • liquid dliquid d Posts: 1,201 Mega Baller
    Many attempts for the 1/4 are super late edge changes where there is a very slim probability of getting even 1/2. Most of mine were knowing that I no chance to get the ski back in front of me, but I could get it outside that bouy. As Bruce said... I can't remember one where the ski stayed attached to me. Probably why I'm getting body parts replaced regularly now!
    Bruce_Butterfieldklindy
  • usaski1usaski1 Posts: 746 Crazy Baller
    Dump it! no one can call it right, and in the end, it doesn't make a difference.. How many placements are decided over 1/4 ball? Almost none I suppose.
    Mark Turner -- Water skiing changed my life forever.
Sign In or Register to comment.