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Trick Judges - Need some help/clarrification

schroedschroed Posts: 162 Open or 55K Rated Skier
Hey Ballers. I'm hoping all you trick judges out there can help me out. My son has been starting in the forward position, doing a surface 5 back (5B) and then from the back position, reversing direction and doing a Back to Back. This progression has not been judged/scored consistently. This often gets judged/scored as 5B credit and then BB repeat. I'm not sure if this is a judging or scoring issue. I think it should be 5 back and then a reverse BB as the ski is moving the opposite direction during the BB as the 5B. I have asked a number of trick judges and they have told me that he should be getting credit for the BB as a reverse to the 5B. At nationals last year they originally scored his run with the repeat BB, but after talking to the judges they changed it to a reverse BB and he got the extra 90 points. However, at a recent local tournament it got scored as a repeat and he didn't get the 90 points. If you look in the appendix of the rule book listing trick descriptions and values, 5B, 5F, 7B, 7F, Os, and BBs are all listed as trick number 5. There is an asterisk on some of the tricks in the chart on page 109, but I don't see what that's referencing.

So here's my question: is the BB after the 5B a valid reverse and hence he would get the 90 points for a reverse or is it a repeat?

Comments

  • MattPMattP Posts: 6,000 Mega Baller
    edited June 2018
    @schroed if the judges are calling the tricks correctly this should be caught in reconciling... even if they are calling it a BB or R the scoring computer should flag it if it has any questions.

    Rule 11.12 - F 4. For trick number 5, reverse tricks are limited to 360 degrees but may
    follow a 360-degree, 540-degree, or 720-degree turn.


    eleeskiklindyschroed
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,872 Infinite Pandas
    As long as one is clockwise and the other counterclockwise they both should count. If the 5B is first is first you get the extra points for the 5.

    It is confusing because if you do the 5 second then it only scores the same as the O or BB. But it should score.

    The reason is that the tricks are listed as the same number. Possibly an incentive to force different tricks into the run.

    Your situation is interesting. If you can do a surface 5 you have enough skills to build a better run. That's a difficult and low point trick. Learn some new tricks. Toes! W5B or W5F. Flips? Lots of fun flashy stuff that scores better.

    I always check my pink sheets. I always have some trick that's cleverly inserted as a hard to call reverse (I might have a surface 5 as a positioning trick). As long as the judges call it right, the scoring program will catch it. And a review to identify a reverse is an acceptable protest reason. Warn the judges before.

    Eric
    klindyschroed
  • schroedschroed Posts: 162 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    Thanks guys. I appreciate the feedback on the rules. FYI - the 5B is first and then the BB.

    @MattP - I think the judges are calling 5B and then BB. I'm guessing the scoring program sets the BB as a repeat since it's not entered as a RBB or something like that but I don't know how that works. Perhaps the scoring program is flagging it but the scorer is sometimes not making the adjustment. Does that sound like a plausible scenario?

    @eleeski - Thanks for the advice. My son is working on more tricks. He was recently able to do some WBB, a W5F, and some toe tricks. Hopefully he'll get this all nailed down before regionals and nationals.
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,293 Mega Baller
    @schroed your explaination back to @MattP is correct. It’s a fairly odd sequence so calling a 5B and a BB would be a repeat in the scoring program. Calling a 5B and a RBB (or simply R) would be scored correctly.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
    AWSA Southern Region EVP
    MattP
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,872 Infinite Pandas
    edited June 2018
    Honestly, in real time, I'd probably call 5B, BB. Not 5B, RBB. The scorers usually catch my mistake (gleefully). The scoring program will score zero and not give warning. Good scorers will catch this. If you warn the judges and scorers, they will catch this.

    While that sequence is not common, it's not rare. You have put it on the radar so we might do better.

    Good basis! Keep boosting the points, difficulty and flash!

    Eric
    klindy
  • RichardDoaneRichardDoane Posts: 4,149 Mega Baller
    edited June 2018
    @schroed the best points from multiple spins are a 7F, then RO. And it will always catch which judges who are not paying attention. Doing a "dream sheet" prior and handing it to the judges is always a good idea
    BallOfSpray Pacific Northwest Vice President of Event Management, aka "Zappy"
    klindy
  • RazorRoss3RazorRoss3 Posts: 1,334 Mega Baller
    So with all of those tricks crammed into the #5 umbrella, is that a limit on how many of them can be in your run? For example would a person get credit for O, reverse O, BB, reverse BB or would the BB, reverse BB be no credit because you already did your trick #5 and reverse with the O, reverse O?
  • MattPMattP Posts: 6,000 Mega Baller
    edited June 2018
    @RazorRoss3 correct. O/R is no credit if you do BB/R before it. It is the same degrees of spinning on the water. You will see some older judges call BB as OB.
    RazorRoss3
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,293 Mega Baller
    One trick and it’s assicoatfed reverse “per number”
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
    AWSA Southern Region EVP
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