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wingless

Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 2,747 Mega Baller
Any one skiing with out a wing on their fin set up. If so what ski and why are you going wingless.
Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


Comments

  • dbutcherdbutcher Posts: 321 Solid Baller
    This may not be of much value to you because you ski faster than I, but I have tried going wingless. I didn't think I needed a wing at my slow speed (30.4 mph), and I probably could adjust to it. However, I ended up going back to a small wing (made smaller with a grinder) set at 6 degrees. My ski is a 68.5" Mapple 6.0.
    The_MS
  • vernonreevevernonreeve Posts: 94 Baller
    I'm on a 69" 2017 Radar Senate Graphite and don't use the wing. I'm 6'2", 205lbs, and ski 32mph. I tried it with the wing on first, but it felt like it had brakes on. It feels like I can carry the speed out and back much easier without the wing. I've heard the wing isn't necessary until you get to 34mph 32off.
  • StickmanStickman Posts: 35 Baller
    I've been told by several people over the years that the benefit of a wing does not come into play until 34 mph - 28 off. Personally, I've never had a problem slowing the ski down.
  • escmanazeescmanaze Posts: 719 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    I've had guys tell me the same thing, but then the next week some other guy tells me that the wing still adds stability even if it is set to a very low angle such that it wouldn't have much/any "braking" effect.

    Which one is true? Ya got me???
  • TELTEL Posts: 303 Crazy Baller
    I ski with a neighbor of mine that skis 28 and 32 off with no wing I’ve seen him run 35 off no wing with a tight line.
  • ntxntx Posts: 824 Crazy Baller
    A key point here is that even with the slower boat speed, we are still talking about very short rope. My guess is that with the larger ski needed for the slower boat speed, at -38 (even if at only 30mph) off you still need the wing to help slow the ski into the turn. Smaller angle and smaller size makes sense in the case of @dbutcher
    dbutcher
  • allycatallycat Posts: 196 Baller
    i don t use a wing but weigh 250 pounds and only ski at 32mph have a radar senate 71 inch felt like i was riding a boat standard settings removed the wing moved the fin forward and up .its a great ski now but at faster speeds and short rope lengths i would put it back on i think i get out of control then
  • OldboyIIOldboyII Posts: 586 Solid Baller
    edited July 2018
    Brakes were invented by cowards ))
    allycatcustomskijayski
  • blagratablagrata Posts: 85 Baller
    I ski a 69 inch HO CX superlite. When I first got it two years ago I took one set with the wing on. Ski felt strange... but... it was also a new ski to me. I took the wing off... it felt like it ran faster. I was skiing 28-30 at the time. Last night I decided to put the wing back on ... I am now skiing 32-34. The ski felt more stable into the turns with the wing on. I only put it at 2 or 3 degrees (didn't have a measure... so just eyeballed it). I had also read a few places that the wing wasn't needed until 28 off or so. For what it's worth last night I thought the wing made the ski feel more stable... and I skied well. I think I'll leave it on.
  • jimskijimski Posts: 400 Solid Baller
    Pulled my wing of today for three passes felt quite a bit faster in the pre turn to the ball. I'm thinking A little bit of Wing will be more stable than no wing
    Maybe 7 deg rather than 9
    -28,34 mph 70 deg water
    67 vapor 2018

  • SkiJaySkiJay Posts: 2,314 Mega Baller
    @jimski
    Good on ya for trying it. FWIW, I agree that less wing feels better than no wing. But I love that you tried it, cause there are insights to be gained from some wingless skiing.

    Two related thoughts. One, there is still a meaningful amount of drag all the way down to 5° if you are looking for more speed without giving up all of the stability of a wing. And two, are you too fast in the pre-turn because a) you gained so much more speed before crossing the second wake? Or b) because you tend to pull long into a late edge change? If it's "b," skiing wingless builds more speed before the late edge change, then scrubs off less of that extra speed before the ball—a worthwhile insight into an issue worthy of attention for future progress.

    There is a school of thought that spending some time without a wing forces skiers to do things that are good for their technique; things like moving the ski through the edge change sooner so a longer pre-turn can have more time to scrub speed off before the turn, and climbing more up over the front foot to better stay ahead of the ski around turns. Riding wingless can actually make it easier to change edges sooner because it takes less core effort to move the ski past the rope behind the boat, and it makes getting over the front foot a little more challenging. Getting used to earlier edge changes and learning to proactively ride balanced over your front foot are both essential skills.

    I was doing some fin testing with a top coach this spring, and he went out without a wing by accident, and ran an effortless set full of sweet, wide, early -32s. He felt something was different, but thought it was the fin I'd given him to try. Going wingless was a non-issue for him because he already changes edges well before he is out of the second white water, and he always climbs all over the tip of his ski into and around the ball. With his excellent technique, the wing's braking effect wasn't remotely necessary for him at 32 off.
    www.FinWhispering.com ... Your ski should be your dance partner, not a wrestling opponent
    jimskiBruce_Butterfielddthate
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,117
    edited July 2018
    Not totally wingless, but today I rode my NRG with the CG Fin with a little Mini Wing set at 5 degrees. Everything @SkiJay said is true. The NRG felt as fast as the EVO, with great carryout. In fact, edge changes at 28 -32 off started at the first wake, with time to eat a sandwich before the ball. So much less effort.

    I've been testing ski's for the last two months and finally feel I've got the right setup to "Efficiently" go run some buoys. Can't make anymore setup excuses, time to put up or shut up !!!

    Special Thanks to Performance Ski and Surf and the Denali Adam's !!!
  • jimskijimski Posts: 400 Solid Baller
    edited July 2018
    Thanks for the insight @SkiJay and yes that's me, B all day long.
    I will sit wingless a little more to see if I can break the habit.
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 2,747 Mega Baller
    Liquid-D cornered me at the states last weekend basically said the same thing about a wing on a ski it was much appreciated and very informative.
    Being very heavily back footed on my ski due to Talipes Equinovarus the challenge is never ending. Over the years to compensate many ski binding mods have been tried, lifts,out of the box fin set ups and even ski modification.
    Ordered a new Vapor in Jan with a second set of inserts a 1/2 inch farther forward. This has really helped as I can now run pretty standard fin settings however after a shoulder injury and the availability of ZBS i have been skiing at 32mph. Removed the wing when the water started really getting warmer. Starting to take some shots at 35 off I feel the ski for me carries more speed out to the buoy line and does not fall off so fast in the turn, far less speed drop at the end of the turn and easier pick up off the ball. Every thing seems to be better without the wing however have tendency to blow out the tail on my off side turn. From Mikes suggestion I am going to install a mini wing and set it shallow, will see if that helps minimize the tail blow out...
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


  • SkiJaySkiJay Posts: 2,314 Mega Baller
    edited July 2018
    @Jody_Seal
    It's widely believed that wing angle helps keep the tail of the ski pulled down into the water while turning, and that this helps avoid blowing out the tail. But this photo shows the water flow hitting the bottom of the wing, not the top. The wing is actually adding lift and support to the tail, not pulling it deeper.


    What causes the tail to blow is trying to turn too tightly by yawing too much tip into the water and/or too much speed into the ball. If taking off the wing causes the tail to start blowing, it's likely because of too much speed and cranked turns, and the drag a wing adds might be exactly what you need at -35. And if you like the extra speed you have without the wing, experiment with lower wing angles. 9° is just a widely used norm, not a requirement.
    www.FinWhispering.com ... Your ski should be your dance partner, not a wrestling opponent
    bf`escmanazeslowJody_Seal
  • vtmechengvtmecheng Posts: 617 Crazy Baller
    edited July 2018
    @SkiJay, I believe that figure may not be correct. To be honest, I haven't completed fluids analyses since college almost 20 years ago, I'm more into structures and shock. That said, water can't follow through the ski. I believe that as the skier pushes against the ski an area of high pressure develops on the side facing down course. Since the ski bottom is at an angle and not perpendicular to the boat direction, the water will move along the ski bottom and over the edges. The water moving towards the tail will reach the wing only if the region of pressure is large enough to extend that far beyond the ski's bottom. I'm guessing it is that big and I would have to think more about how it influences the water and what different angles means for this. Maybe one of the ski designers here could help out a bit or explain how all of this post is wrong.
    Drago
  • jimskijimski Posts: 400 Solid Baller
    Put the wing back on today at 7 deg
    Felt way more stable from the second wake to the ball a little slower than no wing but faster than 9 deg this was a good experiment to try I'll stick with 7 for a while. If I can quit pulling long to the ball like @SkiJay noted I'll be in good shape
  • jimskijimski Posts: 400 Solid Baller
    More experimenting
    Pulled the reflex white cuff off the back and put on a Wiley's
    Blew 2 starts couldn't run a pass at -22
    Gave up
  • UlmskierUlmskier Posts: 1 Baller
    I have been skiing wingless for the last 6 years at 36 mph. I would highly recommend giving it a shot if you're around or over 200 lbs. I will say running beyond 38 off without a wing is fighting the odds of success. In other words, you create a self-imposed cap to your score at some point; however, your body will feel better and you will have no problem keeping your ski in front of you. Rear kicker and no wing! Let the good times roll!
    chris55
  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 3,783 Mega Baller
    @jimski after going to a hardshell I cannot use a wileys anymore. Foot slides forwards in boot unless we downsize till pain country
    jimski
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