Guidance Needed

dnewtondnewton Posts: 101 Baller
Hey guys,

I’m on a 2017 66” vapor, running stock settings. I am running my -15 and -22 pass consistently, actually feeling more confident at -22. I get to -28 and just feel like I fall apart. I have been trying to ski early and wide at -15, and continue with that at -22. Also been working on pull out/gates a lot, but still struggle. If not timed correctly, I feel as if I can start to sink as I begin my turn into the gates or I become narrow. Usually feeling okay coming into 1 ball and getting to 2 okay, but I can’t get the ski to turn for me on my onside. I have tried messing with my fin a bit, but just kept feeling worse and worse on it. Obviously I’m not doing a ton correctly, but looking for what I could be focusing on to move through -28 more consistently. Any help is appreciated, thank you!


  • eyepeelereyepeeler Posts: 214 Baller
    How long have you been skiing? Have you had any professional instruction?
    Matt Dillon
  • dnewtondnewton Posts: 101 Baller
    This is my second year skiing, and last year the big dawg Freddie winter got me through the course for the first time running 28mph. The guy that owns my club watches us ski a bit and helps, but other than that it’s been freeskiing trying to work on some stuff and move to the course to implement it. Reading this website trying understand how to make the ski work for us also.
  • dnewtondnewton Posts: 101 Baller

    Here is my longer line passes. See what ya think and feel free to tell me everything I’m doing wrong. Just trying to wrap my head around this sport.
  • eyepeelereyepeeler Posts: 214 Baller
    Professional instruction is always the best but here are a few things that I see. Remember that good skiing is always a sequence of events so the more of the proper techniques that you have, the better you will ski. The first is the pullout, you are leaning back instead of away from the boat. If you keep consistently leaning back instead of away, it turns into an inefficient habit. The next is the turn in for the gates. Get a little wider setting up for the gates and then make an instant turn in for the gates, not a gradual one. The third thing is body position behind the boat. It needs to be stronger with your handle lower.
    Matt Dillon
  • dnewtondnewton Posts: 101 Baller
    @eyepeeler thank you! Some of the guys I have skied with a bit were instructing on a softer start headed to my gates. I am not saying they are correct. They kept saying "work behind the boat". Again, I'm not even sure what that exactly means.
    Something that seems to be creating a lot of issues is as I create more space my timing is way off and I feel like I am out there waiting on the ball. Like I am changing edges too early and have even made my turn too early and skied inside the ball a couple of times lately. Maybe not even casting the ski out and only skiing to the ball? I would honestly rather run -22 for my opener than -15 because I feel "stronger"?? and more consistent? I don't know, I am frustrated because I am not even familiar enough with what I should feel like on a ski to be able to verbally express what I am experiencing. Last year I was just scraping everything together, and now I am beginning to feel the ski work for me. Only problem is I am not sure what I am doing differently to create that. Thank You.
  • Texas6Texas6 Posts: 2,197
    Great skiing man, and that’s a ton of progress in a really short timeframe by the way. I agree you should be higher on the boat in your pullout and glide, but also balanced in the center of the ski and not on the back during the glide. If you are sinking in before you turn, you simply need to adjust your timing such that you can initiate your turn in toward the gates roughly as your speed matches that of the boat, without slack, and without a completely loaded rope. Once you get that right I would consider working on your arm position as you go through the wakes and begin your transition into the turn. Think about keeping your elbows pinned against your vest a bit longer, and not allowing the boat to pull your arms up and away from your body before it’s time to release and turn
    Daryn Dean - Lakes of Katy, TX
    ***Robbed out of Hundreds of Panda Worthy Posts***
  • dnewtondnewton Posts: 101 Baller
    @Texas6 Thank you for the feedback, seems to make sense. I have been adjusting my pullout all year. I pullout, think to myself I better stand tall so I can let the boat take the slack and I won't be late. What usually happens is, I get sucked in because I stood up too early and then I'm obviously narrow right off the get go.
  • Texas6Texas6 Posts: 2,197
    edited July 2018
    Yep, that's not uncommon, and it's very simply about your timing. When you think about getting tall in your glide, I like to think about getting up on my front foot and getting tall, which centers me over the top of the ski. You want to initiate that turn in from your glide optimally at your highest point in the pull-out, with the speed approximately that of the boat, without a loaded line, but without slack. The turn in can be progressive and doesnt need to happen all at once....Your ski builds angle best when the line isn't loaded, and you moderate speed by progressively building angle and not taking off like a rocket ship too early....If you load hard and take it all at once from your highest point, you will find yourself fast at one ball. Progressive. That timing is easier said that done, but it's what I strive for at most any length 28 and beyond.
    Daryn Dean - Lakes of Katy, TX
    ***Robbed out of Hundreds of Panda Worthy Posts***
  • skiboynyskiboyny Posts: 294 Baller
    Get more weight on your front foot at the glide and the turn in. When you extend to turn let the ski swing out a bit more before you reel in the handle. Be more patient there. Those two things will give you a much earlier line.
  • dnewtondnewton Posts: 101 Baller
    @Texas6 and @skiboyny sweet stuff. I will continue working on this and see what I can come up with. Thank You!
  • Tbone71857Tbone71857 Posts: 22 Baller
    @dnewton, you're doing amazingly well for just two years. I appreciate your video as I'm "re-learning" the sport after 30 years of doing it incorrectly and as a "hobby". Thank you for sharing your success and motivation for a few of us "novices" on the water!
  • KillerKiller Posts: 482 ★★★★Quad Panda Award Recipient ★★★★
    edited July 2018
    that's some very good skiing, especially in just 2 years. Your 28 actually looks a bit better... you have good balance and some fundamental body position that is tough to teach. I like how tall you stand and how relaxed you are (you don't appear to be pulling TOO much). You generate a good amount of angle and speed out of the turn because you are balanced coming into and through the turn, patient in waiting for the ski to come back under the rope before grabbing the handle and leaning.

    Your gate is narrow and inconsistent - @Texas6 has you on track there. With a wider gate you will run 28 easy as is. Are there pregates at your site? Would be worth investigating for consistency on pullout.

    the biggest thing I see holding you back from 32 and even 35 off and beyond is with respect to your body position, and body position is fundamental in going any further - your shoulders are definitively leading in your cut. You want your hips to be leading with your body STACKED on top of itself. hips over feet, shoulders over hips. Head over shoulders. Lead your cut with your hips, keeping your elbows on your vest and balanced over your feet.

    you have some good videos to share - I suggest getting a pro to view them and provide their professional advice.

    I think you have the ability to be a very good shortline skier with some good coaching and time on the water, in short order.
  • dnewtondnewton Posts: 101 Baller
    @Killer thank you!! Our course does have pregates, and I try to use them to the best of my ability. -15, I pullout right before the boat hits them. -22, I try to pullout as the windshield passes them. -28, I pullout as the motor or rear seat section gets through them. Honestly I feel most consistent on my -28 pullout/gates. Most evenings I run -15 and -22 first attempt and then spend the remainder of 2-3 sets messing around -28 and on my good nights I get to make some attempts at -32.
    Yes, last night was the first time this season we had gotten some good video(my brother is my ski partner). We spent a fair amount of time discussing screenshots we had taken and comparing them to screenshots of the videos in the “edge change” thread. We have some work to do, but having a blast.
  • gregygregy Posts: 2,590 Mega Baller
    I usually pull out when the boats about a boat length from the green guides and adjust that back or forward for head or tail wind. I use a progressive pullout so I'm not hitting hard immediately and use a fast count of 4 that's probably in the ballpark of 3 seconds. Counting helps my consistency on gates. Like others have said stay balance on the pullout. You're rolling back on your rear leg so that when you come up to glide your on the rear. There are some top skiers that do a similar pull out but seems harder to master.
  • Fam-manFam-man Posts: 215 Solid Baller
    @dnewton in your first post you mention "can't get the ski to turn offside". Keep in mind I'm at the same stage as you are, learning 28 off. I see similar things in your video as I see in video of myself and what I feel is that if I'm on the back of the ski it doesn't turn offside. I see your hips going over the back foot during your gate glide & turn in and they stay there the entire pass.
    There's many ways to say it and lots of discussion on this forum about getting your hips up and really focusing on that part of your skiing will help throughout the course.
    Straighter legs
    Proud chest
    Shoulders back
    Push hips to next ball
    Find a thought that works for you and gets feet, hips, shoulders lined up throughout the course. When your weight is balanced between your feet the water should be breaking at the ball of your front foot or even farther ahead when in the glide.
    When I'm not stacked behind the boat I think about re-stacking from the wakes to the ball just like in the gate glide. Re-balancing weight on both feet as you head into the ball will get your center of mass forward in a strong position for the turn and load after the turn.

    Establish stack during glide and wakes to ball
    Keep stacked behind the boat.

    You're looking really good especially how well you finish the turn and set angle before loading on the rope. Great Skiing!
  • dnewtondnewton Posts: 101 Baller
    How do you all focus on your counter? Coming around 2 ball do you look for 4 or exaggerate even more? Mine is getting better, but still rather closed off compared to the big dawgs.
  • Texas6Texas6 Posts: 2,197
    edited July 2018
    I would pick the one or two biggest inhibitors to progress and pound them into muscle memory for a bit. The pullout, glide, and gate is something we all work to perfect at every pass, so I view it as a separate item. For you right now it’s arms and hips in my opinion. Countering is a fine tune detail. Reach toward the pylon and you counter naturally
    Daryn Dean - Lakes of Katy, TX
    ***Robbed out of Hundreds of Panda Worthy Posts***
  • Justin_CJustin_C Posts: 274 Solid Baller
    Your upper body looks very stiff on your 2-4-6 side. Your 1-3-5 looks good but it's almost like you're not keeping your head up and looking down course on your off side. Could be why you feel as though you can't get the ski to turn on your off side.
  • wartwart Posts: 35 Baller
    @dnewton you are way ahead of the learning curve with your progress in just two years.

    @killer and Fam man have given you some key advice. Especially with respect to body position.

    So, how do you work on body position? Here are some ideas.

    1 Improving your stance behind the boat is more important than anything else. So, don’t worry about the gates... you’ll have your whole ski career to figure out the gates... and that’s about how long it will take. Therefore, continue to use your pullout keys, then once you’re out there turn for 1-ball when everything feels right. Don’t worry about going through the gates. Most important, right now, is to get as many repeats of good body position as possible. Worrying about the gates can ruin working on body position for the next six pulls. Heck, I would even skip a turn ball from time to time, just to make sure I could get into a perfect pull position. In other words, it not always about chasing buoys.

    2 since you are leaning back sometimes, since you have most of your weight your back foot sometimes... from the moment you get up on the water, 95% of your weight goes on your front foot. Now once in the course, you won’t be able to maintain 95%, but trying to will help get you more evenly balanced on both feet. Now, the warning that goes with this is be aware of your balance... we don’t want you to go flying out the front.

    3 Don’t worry about turns right now. Just reach, turn, and get into your stacked position.

    4 I hear you about liking -28 more than -22 and -15. But at the longer rope lengths you have more time in each wake crossing to work on position. One sure way to force yourself to stack better is to ski -15 and -22 12 to 8 feet outside the turn balls. That is don’t ski to the ball, ski out and around the ball. The only way to do this is to improve your position crossing the wake.

    5 The ski thought... hips up to the handle seems to work well when trying to learn the stacked position.

    Notice the theme? If you develop and ingrain your stacked position now, you will go along way up the line. I’ve watched a few skiers over years get stuck at -32 and -35 because they never built the most important building block of skiing... that is their position directly behind the boat.

  • dnewtondnewton Posts: 101 Baller
    @wart thanks!! Headed to the course tomorrow. Excited to think through all this info and spend some time working on this.
  • PurdueSkierPurdueSkier Posts: 204 Baller
    @dnewton is that boondocks lake in Indiana? Haven't skied there in a few years but really looks like it.
  • dnewtondnewton Posts: 101 Baller
    @PurdueSkier yes sir it is.
  • ecnoecno Posts: 24 Baller
    This is the best thread I think I've read on here.... I'm having the same issues and can't wait to try and apply this... Awesome
  • dnewtondnewton Posts: 101 Baller
    I skied this morning. Didn’t set any records, but spent a lot more time at -15 and -22 trying to ski wide and early in the correct position. I’m sure it wasn’t perfect, but was able to get some things accomplished. Every time I got into -28, I made a solid attempt. Very consistent scoring all morning.
  • dnewtondnewton Posts: 101 Baller

    Making some headway, and feeling good about being able to work on my technique.
  • dg1845dg1845 Posts: 7 Baller
    @dnewton amazing skier at an amazing ski site behind the coolest yellow boat i've ever seen.
  • ISP6ballISP6ball Posts: 244 Solid Baller
    @dg1845 your boat? :)
  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 6,066 Mega Baller
    @dnewton fixing your gates will go a long way toward helping you run that pass. You need to get much higher up on the boat. I am fine with your start point but I would like to see much more intensity on the pull out. You want to be moving at about the same speed as the boat when you turn in not slower and drifting in. Generate more speed and width on the pull out until you are going too fast at the turn in. Then you can adjust. I very, very rarely see anyone I ski with have too much width and speed at the turn in it is always too narrow and too slow.

    You have made a lot of great progress in a short time. Keep it up.
    Mark Shaffer
  • dg1845dg1845 Posts: 7 Baller
    @ISP6ball no not mine! I do ski behind it from time to time though.
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,764 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @dnewton I'm not a big fan of adjusting your pullout on each line length. Since you are waiting longer as the rope get's shorter, I suspect you are pulling out with less intensity each time so you don't get "too far down course" before the gates. As the rope shortens, you'll be able to get wider and further up on the boat with the same aggressive pullout from the same location. Besides, it's easy to commit the pullout to muscle memory if it's the same every pass every line length.

    I'd focus on picking the spot you use for 22 off (seems to be a pretty comfortable pass for you currently) and concentrate on making the pullout the same every time. I'll bet at 28 and 32 you end up starting from a wider position. If you miss the gate initially don't sweat it. Get some consistency and adjust the whole package up or down course to hit the gate.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Chairman of the Board

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