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Trick Judging - Coaching

bojansbojans Posts: 258 Solid Baller
I will preface this by saying I am not complaining about trick judging at all, just looking for an understanding of why a trick might not be counted so I can better coach my son.

At nationals this year my son (B1) stood up his run but did not get credit for his wake back. In trying to coach him it would be helpful to get some insight as to why this trick was not scored. He does the WB at the end of both videos.

Any help is appreciated.

http://www.waterskiresults.com/WfwWeb/wfwShowTourScores.php#&ui-state=dialog

Nationals
Trick
Round 1
B1
Andrew Bojan

Comments

  • The_MSThe_MS Posts: 5,253 Mega Baller
    You need to bribe the judges. Makes no sense how things are done. How can SR judges score a run as a Record and then have SR judges take it away later?
    Shut up and ski
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,522 Mega Baller
    edited August 2018
    He’s not getting fully backwards on the WB or reverse backwrap.

    For the WB try having him hold in the back position for a 3 count when he lands (just for training to get use to being fully backwards)

    UPDATE: It May also help to do the WB going out on the right wake, them come back in for the WF.

    For the reverse back wrap, it really helps to learn to hold it outside the wakes. He’s RFF, so have him get outside the right wake, hold a reverse SS and slowly rotate into the reverse back wrap. He will likely start to edge out more - that’s ok - it helps to get use to holding in such an awkward position. That reverse backwrap can be a bear to learn, but it’s really important and much easier to learn young.

    Stick with it and you’ll have a great little tricker in no time!
    I'm Ancient. WTH do I know?
    jimbrakebojans
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,522 Mega Baller
    Ignore @MS he hates kids.

    Also get him working on toe tricks. He’s past due :)
    I'm Ancient. WTH do I know?
    DirtThe_MS
  • BoilerskierBoilerskier Posts: 3 Baller
    @bojans congratulations on your son making it to nationals in Boys 1, that is terrific!

    @Bruce_Butterfield is exactly correct above. if you watch the ski, the air is great, but the ski never gets around to 180 degrees, so that is why he isn't getting credit for the trick. Its the same thing with his reverse back. Has he tried the "full back" where he lets go of the handle and reconnects behind his back? Its a little slower for now, but he has plenty of time in his run, and that is a good way to learn it and that is almost always credit. Again as Bruce said, learning outside the wake is the best way to do it.

    Also just a little note, make sure he is careful on those sideslides too. There is to be a pause between each trick and he certainly flies from one to another. Don't want him to lose credit on those when he has time in his run.

    Hope that helps!
    Midwest Skier - 3-event Senior Judge
    bojans
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,291 Mega Baller
    @bojans I'd agree with the comments above. Definitely no credit because he's not all the way back. If the reason for NC isn't marked on the pink sheets (some judges will say why), then tricks like the WB - F BOTH being NC is a good sign it wasn't all the way back. If it was NC for no air, the WB would have been NC and the F would have still be ok. Not 100% the case but you can't to a 180 back-front if you don't start in the back position!

    Another trick to help learn to hold the wrap back positions is to tell him to bring the hand down below his butt. Then, while holding it backwards, bring the handle up into the small of his back. He'll feel the pull change on his body and the right muscles will fire to hold him there. Currently it looks like his literally forcing himself backwards by using his shoulders. That's why he's bent over at the waist when he's backward.

    Have him keep his shoulders up and then turn. To aid in holding it backwards, again, move the handle lower to start. I'm not advocating that having the handle that low is the right way to DO the trick. It's just an exercise to help him feel the right muscles to hold it there. Objective #1 is to get those shoulders up so he's not forcing himself into the trick.

    I also agree with @Boilerskier on the S/RS. Slow him down. Hesitate in the front position. He's got lots and lots of time. Learning the right mechanics now goes a long way to learning new tricks!
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
    AWSA Southern Region EVP
    Bruce_ButterfieldbojansBoilerskier
  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 5,961 Mega Baller
    I agree that I would tell him to slow down. He doesn’t have enough tricks that he needs to rush. One of the best tips my son got as a beginner is “slow is smooth and smooth is fast”. You got the right reasons for why he got no credit on the tricks. Have him play around with the back position. Tell him to get in the back position and hold it for as long as he can. Given that he can do a front to front O he could go to the full back to get a feel for how it feels to have the ski in the right position. He does want to learn both back wraps though it opens up a lot of tricks.

    Get him in the back position and have him ride around and cross the wakes. He looks good on the ski and will get there soon.
    Mark Shaffer
    Bruce_Butterfieldbojans
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,872 Infinite Pandas
    edited August 2018
    OK, pass 1 was judged reasonably. Not close on the RB. Why is he going so fast? Slow down and finish the rotation. WB also short. But with the great air, just finish the turn. It's way easier to get all the way back than do a WSS.

    SS was the trick to pick on. His looked fine. But he needs to sell it. A little rope flick from the wrists in between the SSs will show the required pause.

    Second pass was better. He committed to the tricks a lot more and it showed. I probably would have scored the WB as it was close but it's still a lot easier to just get solid rotation.

    Needs toes!!! No reason not to.

    Eric
    bojans
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,872 Infinite Pandas
    Some fun games.

    Go out on the passenger wake (for RFF) and turn into the backwrap. Cut as hard as possible so he's backwards all the way 90 degrees to the boat.

    Ski around the turn in backwrap.

    Turn to back one handed and wave at someone or something he spots.

    Backwards slalom going from side to side inside the wake. Both backwrap and the full back. In the full back, make sure the hands are high on the back with the elbows bent - this gives him some rope control by moving his arms.

    Ride in toes. Play with inside the wake slalom. Tug on the rope trying for slack. Just turn over the foot.

    Get him a friend to double ski with. Spray wars!

    Make sure it's fun for him. 10% serious runs and 90% just messing around.

    Eric
    Bruce_Butterfieldbojans
  • bojansbojans Posts: 258 Solid Baller
    I guess I have a bit of Dad goggles on with the WB. If he lands and then has to push the ski to the full 180, would that still count?
    Thanks for the clarification and the advise, this is the right time of year for playing around.
  • mlusamlusa Posts: 31 Water Ski Industry Professional
    @Bruce_Butterfield is correct in suggesting to hold the back position. Also to work on your back wraps outside the wake starting in SS and then slowing going to the back as you cut outside the wake will pull him to the full back position and help him learn to hold the back wrap.

    Rope length is way to long. I would shorten the rope a few feet. Start with 2-3'

    His side slide's are perfect technique. He initiates the turn with his hips and his body stays over the ski well. All tricks should start the same way and he should build from his SS's. When he proceeds to the O and wrap backs he initiates the turns with his head and shoulders.

    Another drill is to hold SS and learn to turn to the back from the SS. Also SS and then turn the 360. I would stop doing the reverse 360 the way he is doing it now until he learns to start the trick the same as the RSS. He will develop bad habits continuing to practice the RO starting it on edge with his head and shoulders. I'm not a big proponent of 360's until they learn more basics.

    For the back wrap, he has the handle way to the side which prevents him from turning. He is fighting the turn with the pull of the handle to the side wanting to pull him back to the front. Start like the SS initiating the turn with the hips and just continue slowly to the back with the handle staying in the same position.

    Next learn WF, WB, BB, RBB, BB over the wake and RBB over the wake, then work on air.

    jayskiBruce_Butterfieldklindy
  • unksskisunksskis Posts: 352 Baller
    You do not have to teach toes, they are not required in trick skiing, and he needs a lot more control and balance before attempting them. Still not worth the risk in my opinion.
    WaterSkier12
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,872 Infinite Pandas
    You get in the game with your hands. You win with your toes. They are required if you want to be at the top.

    There's no risk for kids. A good release person and they learn fast.

    Use a rope release with no wrap on the pylon - just clamp it with your hand. Maybe a 90 degree bend of the release rope when they start pulling hard. Also, the end of the rope should be slalom rope - not the tiny spectra shoestring main body of the rope as the thin rope digs into the rope release. It's even more important with the Robbins release (OK for kids if you throw the arm for a release).

    Toes are fun!

    Eric
    Bruce_ButterfieldNot_The_Pug
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 2,742 Mega Baller
    If the 6 flip rule was eliminated many more trickers could be competitive with out doing toes. but lets continue with a truly archaic rule in our sport and continue to minimize contenders!
    Some skiers just cant do toes! I have watched over the years many a young trick skier give up, especially once they get into adult divisions because they are limited yet can do every hand trick in the book. Skiers you all probably dont realize could be competitive especially in overall if the 6 flip rule was taken out.
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


    jayski
  • fu_manfu_man Posts: 420 Crazy Baller
    @Jody_Seal I tried looking that up yesterday but couldn't find it in the rules...Is the 6 flip rule per pass or is it max 6 flips between both passes? My understanding it that you can do a trick on 2 skis and again on 1 ski. Wondering why more skiers don't do the same flips on one ski and repeat it again on two skis. It seems that this would push scores higher than doing a toe pass. Maybe I am missing something.
  • KelvinKelvin Posts: 1,149 Mega Baller
    The 6 flip rule in an IWSF rule, not a US rule. Dylan Schaffer has the current collegiate trick record of 7050 points in a single 20 second pass with 9 flips. @Jody_Seal @fu_man

    Link to Dylan's Record Trick Pass
    Kelvin Kelm, Lakes of Katy, Katy Texas
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 2,742 Mega Baller
    There is no such thing as a college record as all college tournaments are class C.
    And yes currently the 6 flip rule is an IWWF only rule. however most of the trick tournaments here in the southern region are class L and AWSA rules are superseded for the most part to IWWF. I know that when Stephen signs up for events he puts down Class E so as that he can ski under AWSA rules. but not alway's do scorers catch his entry.
    the old toe hold skiers are what govern the trick side of the sport. they are so afraid that they will get beat by two hand passes. I have even talked to the likes of Cory and Adam they are admit that everyone should learn toe tricks!! break down the wall and see where trick skiing could go! 20 flips in 20 seconds?? who knows!
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


  • KelvinKelvin Posts: 1,149 Mega Baller
    @Jody_Seal for what it worth, NCWSA does keep track of collegiate records even though the tournaments are sanctioned as Class C.
    Kelvin Kelm, Lakes of Katy, Katy Texas
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,291 Mega Baller
    @Jody_Seal have any of the trick skiers that want to do more than 6 flips put together two passes of tricks that can be scored for reference? Better still are there videos of two 20 second passes that can be scored?

    What does Stephen score in a class E vs class L (assuming the only difference is the limitation on flips)?
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
    AWSA Southern Region EVP
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,872 Infinite Pandas
    A bit of thread drift, the OP was referring to a B1 tricker. Not sure even Jake Ableson was doing flips in his B1 runs.

    Flips are just one aspect of tricking. They are pretty cool but after a while they get repetitious. Honestly, BFLBB looks exactly like BFLSLBB. Spins and ski lines are different and cool. Spectator appeal matters.

    Toes can be boring if limited to a bunch of surface turns. But throw in some big wake turns and some toe steps and toes are impressive.

    I'd rather incentivise well rounded skiers than a bunch more flips.

    Eric
    Bruce_Butterfieldklindydchristmanfu_man
  • elrelr Posts: 286 Mega Baller
    edited August 2018
    I can see removing flip limits but ONLY WITH A WHOLESALE RE-EVALUATION OF TRICK VALUES.
    I think that currently flips are overvalued vis-a-vis other tricks. For instance I think that T5F (350) TWLBB (480)/TWLO (480)/SL5s (550) are substantially more difficult to perform than BFL (500). I think I would work on values and scoring reverses (T[W}B = RT[W]B really?) rather then limits. Set the point values properly and limits can be removed.

    IMO a high end toe pass is the most crowd engaging part of 3 event - at least it was for me the first time I saw one.

    To circle back to beginner tricking - values for toe tricks need to be increased.
    Ed Rink - LSF Texas
    klindydchristman
  • gsm_petergsm_peter Posts: 749 Crazy Baller
    Is there any toe flip tricks?
    Maybe still to be invented?!?
    Life is too short not to enjoy every day!
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,872 Infinite Pandas
    I tried years ago when it was legal to start toes with the toe foot on the ski. Never landed one but the TBFLB might have been possible if I had more skills. Toe foot on the ski to start led to some cool tricks.

    Eric
    klindy
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