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help with CG fin

Bill22Bill22 Posts: 1,759 Mega Baller
edited August 2018 in News & Other Stuff
I did not post this in the CG fin discussion because I did not want to clutter up the other CG fin discussion. I received my CG fin early in the season then spent the season trying 3 different skis, now I am back on my good Ol’ Vapor.

Here we go; I have two free-ski rides on my ski with a CG fin (CG set to same as standard fin w/ DFT -.030 of .720). Two minor issues a) my old binding blew out and I am trying a T-factor for the first time b) I am at the low end of weight range on this ski and never got it dialed in just right.

First ride with the T-factor: 32mph open water no buoys, front boot is set 1/8” back (29 1/4) just to make sure no crazy OTF’s. I could not get the ski to turn either side, felt like I could not get the front of ski in the water.

The obvious next move is front boot forward 1/8. Is there any other move I should make to get this ski to feel smaller? Bindings forward and wing 1 less degree to 8? I am asking because I will only get 1-2 sets before our club has a fun C tournament and I want to do my best.

Ski = ’16 Graphite Vapor 66” w/ RTP, 29 7/16” 6.935 2.455 0.750 9 deg, 40ish yo, 135 lb, 34mph max, average on this ski last year 2-3 @ 22off/34.
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Comments

  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,403 Crazy Baller
    You did a tough thing, making two significant changes at one time. @Than_Bogan is most likely correct, but who knows.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
  • Bill22Bill22 Posts: 1,759 Mega Baller
    @Than_Bogan set it to the same as the old binding and it just takes time to adjust?
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,745 Mega Baller
    @Bill22 Correct. (In my experience.)
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • Bill22Bill22 Posts: 1,759 Mega Baller
    @LeonL I know. I didn't plan on the boot blowing out and still want any help the CG fin can give.
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,223
    After spending months on testing the Vapor Pro, EVO, and NRG, using the CG Fin, I came to the conclusion that the best way, was to set the ski of choice up with the stock fin, to the best that you can get it, then set the CG Fin up to those EXACT settings. I found no need to put the CG Fin back minus .030. You may do that if your just setting up the CG Fin without trying the stock fin first.
    Special Thanks to Performance Ski and Surf and the Denali Adam's !!!
    Bill22
  • Bill22Bill22 Posts: 1,759 Mega Baller
    Thanks @Ed_Johnson I had it set okay before the CG.
  • S1PittsS1Pitts Posts: 228 Baller
    edited August 2018
    One thing I recently discovered about the cg fin is you can run your bindings ahead ( one full inch in my case) and have a new completely feeling ski but in a great way. I then followed up by moving the fin forward until I was happy with the angle the ski was getting coming out of the turn. This was the result on the skis we tried this on with several different skiers agreeing that the skis now out performed their respective previous OEM fin / binding set up.
    I am now convinced that switching to the cg fin also requires a some what radical forward binding move to get the full potential of the fin / ski combination.
    I encourage all those trying the fin to go outside the norm of thinking for set up because there is potential when using this fin that is yet to be fully realized.
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,745 Mega Baller
    @S1Pitts if I'm not mistaken the ski you moved way forward on is a c-65. Denalis can be very tolerant of "insane" forward boot position, regardless of fin.

    I'd be very hesitant to recommend that on other ski brands.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    WishjimbrakeBill22
  • thagerthager Posts: 4,990 Mega Baller
    Or try a BFH!
    Stir vigorously then leave!
  • S1PittsS1Pitts Posts: 228 Baller
    @Than_Bogan
    True that I am riding the C-65 but I am also riding my 15 Vapor as I find it is more tolerant of rougher water conditions so I flip back and forth.
    I preferred the one inch and the three other skiers I ski test with stopped at 3/4 inch.
    2016, 2015 vapor - 2017 Goode XT - 2016? Goode Rev 6 - 2016 HO VTR all reacted favorably to the binding being moved forward with the cg fin as compared to the standard fin.
    Personally I did find that the first 1/4 inch jump forward did not feel that good but once I went another 1/4 inch things started to get better and by the third 1/4 inch the wow factor was kicking in. Again it did require an adjustment to the DFT to suit.
    So that said as @Than_Bogan kindly pointed out - proceed with caution and take into account your particular riding style and ski as to how far forward you might be willing to safely go.
    Than_Bogan
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,745 Mega Baller
    Well that is unexpected and interesting. Thanks for reporting on it.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • DragoDrago Posts: 1,593 Mega Baller
    I don’t have a cg fin, but if you follow @AdamCord ‘s advice on moving dft back .03 and move your bindings forward 1”, Take Video.
    Probably should have ice, a backboard and ankle brace, and maybe the ambulance co ready on speed dial, too.
    SR SL Judge & Driver (“a driver who is super late on the wheel and is out of sync”)
    DeanoskiBill22
  • Bill22Bill22 Posts: 1,759 Mega Baller
    @Drago ummm... no, I'll keep my back in a straight line.

    Back on task. I am thinking about going:
    a) T-factor forward to old setting
    b) DFT back to old setting per Ed
    c) wing -1 to 8 per many comments in the other CG thread

    Thoughts? Too many moves at once?

    Plan B is to repair the old binding and try the T-factor again next spring.
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,745 Mega Baller
    I predict none of those changes will even be noticeable compared to the binding change.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    Drago
  • Bill22Bill22 Posts: 1,759 Mega Baller
    @Than_Bogan I don’t like that answer. Don’t you have a setting that will get me another full pass?
    Than_Bogan
  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 6,042 Mega Baller
    I have to agree with @Than_Bogan. I would spend 3-5 sets on the new binding before doing anything drastic. I made a binding change once and it took me 3 sets before I could even begin to turn the ski. By the 5th set I could run my opener and by the 7th my hardest full pass.
    Mark Shaffer
  • Bill22Bill22 Posts: 1,759 Mega Baller
    You guys are depressing me. This is exactly why I have never bought hard shells.
  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 4,424 Mega Baller
    I'd personally drop in your old fin, put the boot to the normal measurement and go ski till you start feeling groovy. Then before you get too comfortable start making minor moves.
  • AdamCordAdamCord Posts: 845 Open or Level 9 Skier
    Changing bindings sucks. If you just need to get through a tournament, repair your old boot (if possible) and mount up the new boot afterward.
    Than_BoganWishBill22
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,745 Mega Baller
    When a guy who changes fins in the middle of a set tells you that changing something is hard...
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • DWDW Posts: 2,206 Mega Baller
    @Bill22 : My suggestion is to drop to one variable at a time. Can you repair old binding, if yes do that and perform an A-B test on the T factor with ski in standard fin condition / set up that worked for you. At that point, you could then dial the T factor to your liking -or- do the CG fin A-B test with the original repaired binding and dial that setup in. If the original binding is non repairable, dial the T factor in with the original ski setup then proceed to the CG fin.

    If you are determined to do multiple changes, create a small DOE matrix so you can post analyze the data and determine what works.
  • ZmanZman Posts: 1,691 Mega Baller
    @DW You really hitting us up with 6 Sigma terms like DOE, design of experiments?
    DW
  • Steven_HainesSteven_Haines Posts: 1,064 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Has anyone received their fin yet?
  • BlueSkiBlueSki Posts: 809 Mega Baller
    edited August 2018
    No, not from this batch. My kid has been getting the mail with anticipation all week. Fingers crossed for tomorrow. Mine came from the first batch and was well worth it.
  • Bill22Bill22 Posts: 1,759 Mega Baller
    The tone of this discussion just changed from, nothing is working to “let’s keep it right there a few more sets!”

    Today was an awesome ski day and better than expected. I ran 22off four out of four times (34mph, ZO & straight boat path). I have never done that before.

    In the past if I make -22 I always cut the line and bang my head on -28. Today on the 2nd set I gave -28 a shot then dropped back and ran two more -22’s.

    I am not saying it’s the CG or the settings change or the T-factor. Maybe just the right combination of all three or two of them. I have been skiing better this year and running -22 even though I have been on four different skis.

    I will keep you posted on the progress.
    Thanks everyone for the input.

    Settings update: DFT set same as old fin, wing -2 to 7deg, front boot same as first T-F ride (correction to OP, actually 1/16” back of old boot).

    @Than_Bogan thanks!

    @AdamCord thanks for sharing the CG with us.

    @DW no work terms aloud... haha

    @thager no clue what you are talking about. How many off topics are you going to give me in a discussion about my ski???

    @S1Pitts very interesting results. Were all of those larger 68”-69” ski’s?
    Than_BoganAdamCord
  • Steven_HainesSteven_Haines Posts: 1,064 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Lame!
  • Bill22Bill22 Posts: 1,759 Mega Baller
    Can we talk about shipping details in the other CG fin thread? Please and thank you.
  • Bill22Bill22 Posts: 1,759 Mega Baller
    As a reference, I ran 22 last year about 5-6 times with 25ish Rico’s... lol
  • S1PittsS1Pitts Posts: 228 Baller
    @Bill22 The shortest was the XT @ 65.25 and I think the longest was the VTR @ 68?
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