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How should we compensate Promo Boat Owners?

HortonHorton Posts: 28,774 Administrator
Like it or not one makes money as a promo boat owner* and most are lucky to break even. Bottom line is we need promo boats and we need skiers who are willing to be a part of the programs. I have heard the idea that a Promo guy should get $150 to show up and then $20 per engine hour during the event. Another idea is to simply pay the boat owner $5 per skier pulled. There is also the issue of miles. If a boat comes from hundreds of miles away that is gas and truck wear and tear.

It is for us to figure this out. It seems to me that it would be a good thing if the solution was standard across regions or the country.

*Yes I am aware that over the years some have managed to make a profit or claimed to have made a profit. That is not the issue here.
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Comments

  • ski6jonesski6jones Posts: 1,053 Mega Baller
    To @Bruce_Butterfield and @Jody_Seal point with repsect ro rules who cares are the boat mfgrs.
    Carl Addington, Lakes of Katy, Texas
  • bigskieridahobigskieridaho Posts: 939 Crazy Baller
    I agree with @lakeaustinskier
    vtjc
  • JackQJackQ Posts: 321 Crazy Baller
    I think we need to have a balance, I practice on a 2009, 196 Nautique (that is well maintained, 500hr, current software and tight steering), would I mind skiing in a tournament with that, no. I don't need to have a current year boat.

    But do I want to ski behind some of the other boats at my lake (and others) that are poorly maintained if at all, have loose steering, and questionable running engines with 1500+ hours, No.

    Even if my 196 was brand new it does not track nearly as well as the newer crop of boats (2019 Ski Nautique, not so sure) and I feel I am not as likely unless the driver is top notch to get a good pull. So should the rule be current hull type? No older than 7 years?, etc, not sure but some balance needs to be found or possibly one tighter standard for R/L/E and a less prescriptive standard for C tournaments?
  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 4,139 Mega Baller
    My lay view is that it seems that many sites that are hosting tournaments have a promo boat booked and 2 late model acceptable boats owned by people who are at the site sitting on trailers.

    If you shifted the idea from Promo having a contract to provide these pulls and trying to break even on boat ownership when they resell - to paying owners of boats, wouldn't many of these tournaments be able to be pulled by locally sourced boats?

    It just seems that the MFG should want to have a select group of people who would be bringing the BRAND new boats to major events, nationals, the masters etc. They'd be more brand ambassadors then promo owners - but could use the same general format, these would be the guys who were really involved at the regional levels and pulled only certain specific events with the boats that were being released. Then you could have tournaments provide the boats locally and pay/insure the boat's owner.

    And as a third tier to that maybe you could talk to the MFG to provide a sponsorship to the events "collegiate alumni tournament 2019 - brought to you by MC" as opposed to their involvement being through the local promo guy who maybe doesn't really want to be at the collegiate alumni tourney, and really wants that last skier to wrap up so they can get their boat wiped down and head home.
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,381 Mega Baller
    I am confused by the discussion of older boats. To me the problem stems for the artificial requirement to have class L tournaments. For class C you can pull a tournament with pretty much any boat. If its old you just need approval which at least in SCR has always been granted. So why do we need all these L tournaments? Its because the top skiers need the scores for stuff like the Jr Masters and Jr teams, world teams and so forth and regional records. What we need to do is allow class C scores to be used for these events and we will get away from all the crap we inherit with IWWF like tons of video gear, TC's, surveys, lots of sr. judges and so forth.
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
    gdetray
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,774 Administrator
    Some of you feel that the solution to the problem is to simply revert to older boats. I do think that the sport has gone down a treacherous path demanding that we always use new or almost new boats but the alternative is actually more complicated.

    The owner of 1000 hour 10 yr old boat might not be particularly bothered by another 5 or 10 hours on the boat over the course of a weekend. If he takes that boat to three or four tournaments a year now we're going to call that 15 to 40 hours. You do that a couple years in a row you are really depreciating the dependable old tug. As a percentage the wear and tear on this old boat is much smaller than it would be on a brand new boat but at the end of this process the owner is left with a boat closer to the end of his life.

    My point is many skiers might be just as happy with old boats but in the long run it might be harder to find Boat Owners to supply boats.

    The current system may not be perfect but I think it is simpler and more practical to make being a promo guy more attractive than it would be to revert to some new system.

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  • Not_The_PugNot_The_Pug Posts: 614 Crazy Baller
    I don't mind skiing behind older boats. My back up boat is a 2004 196 with ZO. But finding individuals willing to use their boats for all tournaments is just as hard as getting a promo boat. They usually have to carry extra insurance $500k liability and AWSA as additional insured and don't want the wear and tear on their boat. Sometimes we can find one for a day or so. If we don't support the manufactures, the programs will go away. Just look how much people complained with Nautique cut back their program last year. If we continue complaining about the boats and saying older boats are better, why invest in the future. As a promo owner, I'm not in this to make money, but I do like to at least break even or cost me a little. We need to stop trying to live in the past, things are not going to get cheaper, not just skiing.
    skierjpAKShortline
  • T_CT_C Posts: 140 Baller
    The term Promo means that the promo boat and (promo guy) are promoting the manufacture's product.
    It is the manufactures responsibility to make it worth the "promo guy" time and effort. It seems like the boat should belong to the factory and should be turned back to them when the factory wants to promote a new or better product. It is nice to ski behind the latest and greatest and if the tournament director wants to show case the latest and greatest they should be able to charge a $5 premium entry fee to cover the promo guys time and gas for the tow rig. The factory should supply the boat.
    scotchipmanKiller
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,774 Administrator
    @T_C if that was the program I suspect all 3 factories would say "good luck” and move on.
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  • RazorRoss3RazorRoss3 Posts: 1,355 Mega Baller
    At the end of it the promo guy should be able to walk away cash neutral.
    Hours based depreciation on the boat
    Miles Depreciation on truck and trailer
    Room and board within reason
    If they are skiing, a person could see their way to a free entry as well... hard to have an event without a boat.

    They voluntarily joined the promo program so they know they're going to be out money on the turnover to a new boat YoY but they shouldn't be out anything for getting the boat to an event.
    skierjpReggieOsunnshinne
  • T_CT_C Posts: 140 Baller
    @Horton and there in lies the problem
    JordanOzScarletArrow
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,774 Administrator
    @T_C it is about economics not apathy
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    BdeckerPat M
  • bigskieridahobigskieridaho Posts: 939 Crazy Baller
    Promo guys get a free boat they can ski behind as well, in return you use it for events. You do choose to be to be that “promo guy” and we do appreciate it, however you can just think about as not having to make a boat payment and that money can go towards the trips. Our Nautique promo guy is very generous with his boat, and never complains about being compensated because skiing and events is what he loves to do.
    slow
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,774 Administrator
    edited November 2018
    @bigskieridaho you are totally misinformed if you think being promo means a free boat. There is cost or financial peril with each of the 3 programs. It is more expensive than ever so I'm just saying tournament organizers and skiers should be looking for ways to support the promo guys.

    The argument can be made that being a Nautique or MasterCraft promo today is better than it was in the past because you don't have to sell your own boat at the end but the boat is certainly not free. The Malibu guys are still buying and selling their own boats so if they get lucky some years and sell their boat for a profit that's great but other years they're likely to take a loss.

    FYI - my boat is technically not a promo boat. This thread is not me fundraising for myself.
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    skierjpbishop8950
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 2,901 Mega Baller
    As far as what I know how the Nautique promo program works:
    The promotional agent is not the owner of the boat. A dealer orders the boat equipped as prescribed by the manufacturer and the color, bells and whistles the dealer orders. Then the dealer is assigned a agent by the manufacturer promotional director. It is a joint decision between a dealer and the manufacturer. Then this agent will pay aproxamatly $3500 to utilize the boat for their own enjoyment and is assigned a number of events both agreed upon by the dealer and the promo director. This agent can only put a small amount of personal hours and a small amount of promo participation hours roughly totaling less then 200 hours. The dealer then gets the boat returned at the end of the season if the promo agent has not sold it for the dealer. Again each dealer will make the deal with these agents as per what they feel will benefit their dealership.
    5 years ago there were nearly 50 boats being utilized under the old promo ownership program nation wide and I am including athletes team boats and a few loose boats the factory proper supplied.
    That number is now around 30 boats covering the same territory, with certain restrictions. Restrictions such as a tournament must have a minimum of around 20 entrys. If a boat is transported say over 100 miles round trip, the loc then must make an agreement for compensation for the travel expense.
    Now Nautique wants very much to have their products utilized in the sports competitions and they pay a very large amount of money in licensing fees and support to our organization to do so.
    However in the last number of years nautique asked for compensation in some manor or another as they have participated at a level that the other three manufacturers combined could not equate too , our organization turn them down.
    Now Nautiques have stipulations that a LOC must adhear too and Nautiques are no longer sending boats to almost every event scheduled.
    I still go back too are our current rules and guidelines towards towboat usage for competition a good route given the current trends and atmosphere in our sport? AWSA will not deny tournaments for older boat usage. 2008 is the last year for inclusion. In May I got a rule exception to use a 09 196 in our record as Nautique was not ready to let the new boat be utilized.
    Bottom line want to hold an event with new boats? Then a LOC has to make the arrangements and the deal to do so.
    If tacking on money to an already high entry to do so is the direction then so be it, want to play? Got to pay!!
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


    slow
  • bigskieridahobigskieridaho Posts: 939 Crazy Baller
    Essentially you are making a one time lump some payment to use the boat for 10 months. You aren’t paying for the boat and that is what I was trying to say above. I honestly would love to join the MC program if you could use the promo on open water, but from what I understand you can’t.
  • JackQJackQ Posts: 321 Crazy Baller
    I agree that the incentives need to be in place to support the Promo "owners", and a additional fee to be included with entry fee of the tournament is one of, or part of a package of solutions. However, depending on magnitude of the entry fee increase, a balance needs to be found. If entry fee increase "too much" and fewer skiers attend tournaments we could end up with a death spiral of lower participants driving up higher entry fees....causing less participation.
    Dragosethbakescake
  • blakeyatesblakeyates Posts: 164 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Being in the Promo Program for 8 years now, I assure you it’s not profitable, it does cost money and it’s in need of “Promo Incentive” by the LOC. Personally, with the changes that are evolving, if/when my dealer needs me, that will take first priority. Of course we do have a personal life and sometimes we have other plans. I’ve decided that if I’m asked to attend a tournament and if that event hasn’t been a good fit for me in the past, that may be a weekend where I help the dealer with a demo day or take a weekend with my family. As a Promo Rep, it’s not my place to suggest bigger incentives. If they want to keep us coming back, they need to come up with a good plan. At times, I just have to tell myself “I’m doing my part to promote the sport.” Thanks @dave2ball and @MS for your comments.
    Blake Yates
    Nautique Promo Rep, GA
    ski6jonesThe_MS
  • dave2balldave2ball Posts: 672 Crazy Baller
    @Alvin_Neff I too was on Nautique for over 40 years also. I agree with you on just about everything except the notion the promo teams will go away. I believe that it if things don’t change it may come come down to the cordinators to do much of the leg work and just pull the needed 20% of tournaments for nationals and the rest will be up to the tournament hosts. I really hope I am wrong.
    Alvin_Neff
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