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Horton's Slalom Fundamentals Video #1

HortonHorton Posts: 28,959 Administrator
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Comments

  • shansen345shansen345 Posts: 181 Baller
    Thank you, John! This is the main thing I struggle with..
  • skialexskialex Posts: 1,036 Crazy Baller
    This makes a lot of sense to me. I work on this since I first heard it from you and I advise others to try it.
  • jimbrakejimbrake Posts: 1,349 Mega Baller
    Got to ski two sets w Thomas Degasperi in September at his family's ski school in Trento, IT. This is EXACTLY what he was trying to get me to do coming into the buoy. He didn't specify back leg, but he was trying to get me to be as tall as possible coming into the buoy. That centering (or getting forward) plus being patient and slow back to the handle really helped me. I knew that being tall, especially into my offside, was a good thing, but I wasn't consistent with it and that coaching kind of cemented it's importance for me.
    "...all of the basic fun banter"
    Horton
  • HighAltitudeHighAltitude Posts: 145 Baller
    Great video! Can't wait to put some of this to use in the spring when I start skiing again. Based on what you are saying, how do you think this correlates to binding placement? If most of us really aren't that good at moving our weight forward, do you think being stacked with the bindings a bit forward is, in general, a better position for most people?
  • gt2003gt2003 Posts: 726 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    And THIS is exactly what keeps me from running the course!
    2014 HO TX
    1996 Malibu Echelon
  • chris55chris55 Posts: 377 Crazy Baller
    Thank you so much for the video and this is exactly what I have to work on. Every time I see myself on video.....I am sitting on my back foot. So it is gonna be my only thing I will work on until it is buried on my muscle's memory. I really like your "basic just one thing to work on" video and you canmake more of them....thank's again
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,959 Administrator
    @chris55 I am not going to say it is easy but I believe thinking about just "standing up" is much simpler method than common tips such as
    • hips up
    • shoulders back
    • knees forward (although this is actually a good idea)
    I do not want to insult anyone by saying it is easy but it is a lot less hard if you approach it the right way.
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  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,959 Administrator
    edited November 2018
    @HighAltitude

    Bindings are adjustable for a reason and binding position is critical.

    I strongly discourage moving bindings forward to compensate for hips back. Moving your bindings forward will not correct for the deficits in your stance and will likely exacerbate your problems.

    Moving bindings forward without a clear understanding of ski set up is something I see often. It gives the skier a feeling of faster turns but in the end it means less angle across and might make a correct position harder to achieve.

    Binding adjustments are generally more radical then fin adjustments. I rarely move my bindings more than 1/10th of an inch at a time. Old school set ups allow for 3/8” at a time. I cannot count the times I have seen 15off – 28off skiers with their bindings ¾” forward of stock - These skiers often ski way better after moving their bindings back to stock plus a little coaching.
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    Than_BoganSharkrimodico
  • HighAltitudeHighAltitude Posts: 145 Baller
    @Horton Thanks for taking the time to answer. Seems like your advice is generally what I have read on this site. I'm one of the 15-28 off skier you mention and I plan to move my bindings back to stock at the beginning of next season. I also need to get some coaching but that's for another thread.
  • adamhcaldwelladamhcaldwell Posts: 648 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @Horton, Being devils advocate.....and to give more credit to what JB was doing.

    I can get to CL a lot faster when I ski a compressed style on a HS turn. Hell, watch Mapples gate shot. He doesn't look much different the JB.




    Reality is, in those frames, both skiers are trying very hard to 'stand'. They are not sinking and getting further squatted into CL. NOTE, ski setup is a massive part of this "working". You wont find success with it with a boots forward, & long/shallow/back fin setup that has over-stable YAW rotation.

    Being more compressed on a Onside pull allows me to create WAY more angle (and speed) into CL (not so true for a Offside pull). The huge issue is that 99% of the time all that speed and excessive angle is actually counterproductive when coming off the second wake as my mass and ski are slung off the handle in an uncontrollable trajectory causing early separation.

    Jamie understood something most people do not, and even further, knew how to execute it on the water. His ski setup also complimented his style well. Much like Mapple. Boots back, fin forward/deep/short. Part of his compressed style is how he was able to roll over the ski to keep his COM balanced while under load. To your point, this is a skilled move, and requires knowing how to execute post CL swing very very well.

    If you stood at the end of the lake and watched JB, one thing stood out. He was faster from Buoy to CL then ANY other skier out there...except maybe Nate today.
    Bruce_ButterfieldWishScottScott
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,959 Administrator
    edited December 2018
    @adamhcaldwell Yea I should likely walk back some of what I said about Jamie. What I should have said is something like "unless you already run passes at 38 and beyond you should not try to emulate Jamie."

    I do not doubt any of what you wrote above. The problem is that 92.5% of the readers of this web site run less than 38 off. In my experience it is MUCH harder to ski forward compressed than it is to ski tall and most skiers who attempt to ski compressed move their center of mass back.

    I super interested in the theory of why forward compressed is better than tall. @twhisper tried to explain it to me once and I should have been taking notes. Clearly some of the best skiers in the world today ski compressed but I have NEVER met a 35 off (or less) level skier who was successful at skiing compressed forward.
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  • adamhcaldwelladamhcaldwell Posts: 648 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @Horton. I really liked the video. As a lefty, being taller makes my gate shot & swing to one ball WAY more consistent. Im all for the tall/extended position!
    Hortonjipster43Shark
  • RednucleusRednucleus Posts: 415 Crazy Baller
    @Horton I had the good fortune of a Dec 1st ski this AM in WA, and all I thought about was standing tall, straighter rear leg. I'm getting fairly comfortable at 32/15 and ran some of my best passes ever today! Lots more angle, ski finished the turn better - hope I can remember tomorrow what I did today. If you're up in my neck of the woods I will pour you a nice scotch if you will teach me some more!
    HortonToddA
  • DragoDrago Posts: 1,588 Mega Baller
    While I appreciate the trend to ski like Nate, I actually feel it's easier to ski like Jamie.
    After 2-3 years of shallow fin/ stacked/etc skiing, I made the decision last fall to go back to deep fin/reverse C/etc skiing.
    If you analyzed Jamie's position (put markers on his ankles, hips, and shoulders), you would see more "stack" than you think.
    SR SL Judge & Driver (“a driver who is super late on the wheel and is out of sync”)
    Bruce_Butterfieldktm300ALPJrjimbrake
  • TustinTomTustinTom Posts: 103 Baller
    Thank you @Horton, fantastic stuff for us less mortals. I get what you are saying & in a desperate move to get my weight forward I just bought a RTP. Your message has been the same at 3 schools and my TW Video training.

    Could you recommend any free ski or land drills? Thoughts on practicing behind the boat at a slower speed and shorter line length (no water/no course until winter) ?

    Your BOS slow mo video of Chis Parrish is perfection of what you are saying. His compression is minute compared to TW or JB.

    Can Video 2 be about how to keep your arms to the vest/handle down?
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,959 Administrator
    edited December 2018
    @TustinTom I am not sure moving to RTP is a good or bad thing but you may find the transition to be a project above and beyond fixing your stance.

    As for dry land drills - I think they are generally useless. Any dry land drill is an exercise on a static surface - the water pressures under your feet are always dynamic.

    As for arms down.... if your stance is correct & arms are straight, your elbows will be on your vest. There are some "tricks" to take it to the next level but if your stance is wrong those concepts are pointless.

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  • escmanazeescmanaze Posts: 778 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    So you just bumped the Terry Winter 1/4 speed video. His back leg is really bent. Is he more in the Jamie category?
  • ktm300ktm300 Posts: 408 Solid Baller
    "Natural hip and knee bender" is a term known to most any pro sports trainer. A natural knee bender like Mapple or JB or Twhisper ain't going to benefit from trying to ski straight legged. Can draw a straight line from head thru hips thru feet: that is stacked. It is also very dynamic. Though it may be true that non 38off natural knee benders haven't perfected their stack, I disagree that they should abandon their natural athletic stance. Maybe they just need to move everything forward an inch or two. What is holding back the straight legged non 38 off skiers? Lack of dynamic balance?
    KillerScottScottjimski
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,959 Administrator
    @ktm300 I agree that those rare talented folks that make it work should not change. I am really speaking to the majority of the skiing public who simply can't ski that way.
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  • KRoundyKRoundy Posts: 401 Crazy Baller
    edited December 2018
    I like this. Good advice that works for skiers learning the course. Can we get more Horton Slalom Fundamentals videos this offseason?
    LanceHCookRyota ZmanGarn
  • jimbrakejimbrake Posts: 1,349 Mega Baller
    edited December 2018
    There's a big difference between being knee- and ankle-flexed in your pull and into your edge change and being that way coming into the ball and through the turn. Some of the most flexy, compressed skiers like a Terry or a Marcus get very straight and long coming into the bouy, especially into their offside. It's a distinct up and forward (or at least centered) move. I took @Horton's video to be about that - being long/tall/straight back leg coming into the bouy, not about being in that position at all times.
    "...all of the basic fun banter"
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,959 Administrator
    @jimbrake No. That is not what I was trying to say. I am saying that straighter legs (straighter back leg) from apex to the first wakes is the easy way to move your mass forward. Doing it from the wakes to the ball is a very good thing also but that is not really my main point.
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  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,959 Administrator
    edited December 2018
    @KRoundy I already recorded my second video but I hate it and need to re-do it. : - )
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  • jimbrakejimbrake Posts: 1,349 Mega Baller
    edited December 2018
    @horton - I rewatched/listened. I hear and see you saying/showing both - 4:10 you appear to be referring to coming into the ball. 5:19ish you appear to be referring to the pull. As has already been discussed here, you can be all full o' angles in the pull and still be stacked, centered, even forward, efficient, and strong (especially in an onside pull). Yeah, maybe that's more athletic. Coming into the bouy? We all are best served by being tall, long, and centered to forward. I'm this close to starting an alpine ski racing technique analogy. So...
    "...all of the basic fun banter"
    dvskierThan_Boganjipster43
  • jimbrakejimbrake Posts: 1,349 Mega Baller
    @ToddL - I hohardly agree. I use the pull out at the end of the lake to see how good of a stance and stack and connection I can have and what it does to my acceleration, load, angle, etc. I'm constantly pulling skiers that do an arms-out pull, then suddenly let off losing connection. They have a hard time getting up on the boat. I don't point it out usually, though, because if I do they'll start skiing better than me and that pisses me off.
    "...all of the basic fun banter"
    WaterSkier12jipster43
  • jimbrakejimbrake Posts: 1,349 Mega Baller
    Except for you, Alex, in case you read this. Your pull-out improved so much last year and you're already better than me.
    "...all of the basic fun banter"
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,188
    To take it one step further, I don't understand why, if someone messes up 1 or 2 ball, they just stand in the middle of the wake all the way to the end, and drop. Why not take advantage of the time remaining down the course, to free ski, and practice a couple of pulls and turns, without buoys, to work on technique. Seems like such a waste.

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    RednucleusLanceHCookWaterSkier12scotchipman
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