Horton's Slalom Fundamentals Video #2 — BallOfSpray Water Ski Forum

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Horton's Slalom Fundamentals Video #2

HortonHorton Posts: 29,527 Administrator

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Comments

  • IGskiIGski Posts: 75 Baller
    @Horton Thanks. These first two videos have really given me some basic steps to improve on come spring. Keep them coming.
    ToddA
  • KRoundyKRoundy Posts: 455 Crazy Baller
    edited December 2018


    You were right. You do really throw your arm back on your on side turn. ;)

    Good points made about counter-rotation. This type of discussion is what I love about slalom. There is so much technical information to consider, digest and implement. And, when I get on the water often all I get from my brain is "BOUYS! Lots of BOUYS!"
    ToddAjipster43Shark
  • igkyaigkya Posts: 727 Crazy Baller
    @Horton Did you make this video after the one for the Denali unboxing? :smile:
    skiboyny
  • ski6jonesski6jones Posts: 1,086 Mega Baller
    I liked that but don't apologize for trying to help people with the best info you had at the time.

    We as skiers need to control the information we apply to our skiing. I found some good stuff in that video, and other that wasn't relevant to my situation for whatever reason. Most of the good was probably addressing my specific weaknesses.

    I always take something good away from coaching, even if not what the coach intended. I like this series.
    Carl Addington, Lakes of Katy, Texas
    RichardDoaneKRoundy
  • DanoDano Posts: 141 Baller
    @Horton I think these video's are awesome! Am i correct in thinking that maintaining handle at hip off the second wake (through edge change) would help in keeping hips aligned in an outbound direction? Would this set you up to be in a good position to simply make the reach without "thinking" counter rotate? This past season I've been working on this counter rotate thing but i'm missing something. As I often think counter rotate and sometimes it goes very well and the next time it's straight leg and tail riding a wheelie out of the turn.
  • ToddAToddA Posts: 113 Baller
    edited December 2018
    @Horton great points!
  • WayneWayne Posts: 519 Solid Baller
    These fundamentals videos have been great and thank you for taking the time to make them.
    Calisdad57Obrienslalom
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,273 Mega Baller
    Will it help make big spray?
    JordanDaveD
  • JetsetrJetsetr Posts: 463 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @Horton a bit off topic (sorry) but why do you drain the lake down? I would be skiing if I lived where you do this time of year...
    Shark
  • HortonHorton Posts: 29,527 Administrator
    @Jetsetr lake maintenance

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  • HortonHorton Posts: 29,527 Administrator
    @Dano I think you are on the right path. As I said in the video I do not think anyone should "try" to counter rotate.

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    ZmanDano
  • So_I_SkiSo_I_Ski Posts: 142 Baller
    @Horton - Good videos and I will look for future installments however, I really don't get the correlation between countering and falling back. I have heard you mention that in other posts but when I just stand with one foot in front of the other and simply twist my hips by a couple of degrees in either direction, my weight distribution remains exactly the same. Now if you throw your arm back, perhaps, but that would not be advisable. Ideally, just leave your arms relaxed and extended by your sides. Then twist a couple of degrees and without moving your upper arm, just bend your arm at the elbow to get the idea of what the end result should be. In other words, when you release the handle to counter DO NOT extend your arm but rather leave it bent so that your forearm remains perpendicular to the water and in close proximity to your body. You will have remained quiet in your upper body and the result will be that your hand is still quite close to your vest and ready to reconnect with the handle as you complete the turn. That is what I see the pros that are moving their upper body the least are doing on the water. Case in point - Chris Parrish
    GarDaveD
  • HortonHorton Posts: 29,527 Administrator
    @So_I_Ski
    Many skiers think counter rotating happens in the shoulders and that is want I am addressing. If you move your outside shoulder back you will likely move your center of mass back.

    when you release the handle to counter


    This is the wrong idea. Your outside hand should come off the handle as late as possible and any counter should ideally be the result of the your hips pointing out from the second wake. So there is not really a twist needed. The tip of your ski and your "parts" (Man Parts or Lady Parts) should be pointed in the same direction.

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    Shark
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,227
    The way I think of it is when you release the outside hand, and begin your forward reach, bring the inside hip forward with it at the same time. This brings your COM forward at the same time, and you will actually see the water breaking forward of the front foot, going into the apex.
    This forms a natural hip counter. It is important to remember that the shoulders will follow the hips, however, the hips won't always follow the shoulders. If you want to prevent rocking back, the counter should always start from the bottom up and not the top down. That's why throwing the shoulders back will cause you to rock back. Horton is 100% correct on that.

    Special Thanks to Performance Ski and Surf and the Denali Adam's !!!
    HortonSo_I_Ski
  • So_I_SkiSo_I_Ski Posts: 142 Baller
    @Horton - I agree with Ed's analysis on bringing the COM forward but what neither of you has addressed or acknowledged is that our stance is asymetric which is the reason that the hips are not aligned the same as we cross the wakes and begin the preturn. Approaching our on side the counter will be natural or much easier but for the offside turn, to actually aim your torso slightly towards the shore as opposed to directly down the ball line is not possible without any counter.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 29,527 Administrator
    edited December 2018
    @So_I_Ski

    Why is it important to point your chest at shore?

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  • So_I_SkiSo_I_Ski Posts: 142 Baller
    @Horton That goes directly to Ed's comment which places the hip and COM on the inside edge of the ski. As we turn the ski with our lower body pivoting, our upper body can remain still and facing down course just like a snow skier which I believe is much more efficient. I would say that when we counter, we force our lower body - hips, knees and ankles to activate to turn the ski and in so doing we are able to keep our upper bodies much higher off the water while rolling the ski more on edge - ideally like a Nate Smith or a Marcus Brown onside. Conversely, old style skiers from the 70's and 80's kept their bodies straight and relied solely on falling to the inside to turn. For one thing they could not transition nearly as quickly or as easily. Honestly, I don't know the bio mechanical reasons but any snow skier will tell you that as you turn the torso one way, the lower body will readily and eagerly twist in the opposite direction.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 29,527 Administrator
    So_I_Ski
    The mechanics are simple. By twisting away it is easier / more natural to move your mass in the direction you wish to turn. My whole point is that many skiers artificially add upper body counter and that is counter productive.

    Less is more.

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  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,847 Mega Baller
    @Horton said, "your 'parts' and ski pointed in the same direction." Yes! I totally agree. IMHO, hips steer the ski. The ski goes where the tip is pointed and the tip is pointed where the hips are. This is why skiers who can retain outbound direction off the 2nd wake are also the one who are able to keep hips pointed outbound through the edge change. Thus, outbound direction (via retained "countered" hips) is maintained vs. artificially created. This creates width and space.

    @TFIN said it best: "Ideally, a counter-rotated position is a simple result, not an action."
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
    Shark
  • AdamCordAdamCord Posts: 852 Open or Level 9 Skier
    @Horton @ToddL that whole concept breaks down as the rope gets short. At longer lines and/or when there isn't adequate speed generated before centerline to make it to the buoy, yes you should keep your body and the ski pointed out to get the width needed.

    But as the rope gets shorter, the skier must ski up and around the boat in order to get to the buoy line. This means that we need to generate enough speed before the wakes, and then put ourselves in a position to rotate around the pylon with the handle - not try and ski away from the handle. If you are trying to "counter rotate" your hips and the ski out when coming off the second wake, you are forcing disconnection from the handle.

    The absolute best skiers are the ones whose hips rotate the other way - toward the boat - after the second wake, and therefore the ski rotates toward the boat very early. They have the speed needed to get "wide", so they can focus on staying connected to the handle and getting the ski to start it's rotation as soon as they cross centerline.
    igkyaHortonJordanMISkier
  • HortonHorton Posts: 29,527 Administrator
    edited December 2018
    @AdamCord the audience for this video is a 35 off or less skier. I agree with what you wrote but the fundamental that I am advocating is don't twist your shoulders out. As far as pelvis direction I think we are talking about a few degrees of rotation one way or another and a lot of shades of grey.

    I'm sort of regretting that I brought up pelvis rotation because I think that is a sidebar to the point I'm really trying to make.

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  • Southside_MikeSouthside_Mike Posts: 17 Baller
    @Horton - I don't think you should be regretting bringing up pelvis rotation. As a 15 off skier working up through the speeds what you have been discussing is very helpful.

    Clearly the orientation of my upper body in relation to my lower body needs to change between the point I start to change edge (probably a bit later than you guys, but that's another subject) and the point I hook up with the boat again after the buoy. What I'm taking from this discussion is that the first part of that is squaring up with the ski as I head outbound and then leading into the turn itself (especially offside) with my hips/lower body which I can understand will produce a natural "counter rotation" effect as my shoulder will inevitably rotate out slightly. The idea that this will keep my weight forward compared with pulling my outside shoulder/arm back makes a great deal of sense and I can see that I will have a much better chance of getting into a half decent position at the end of the turn doing that. Without the pelvis bit, I don't think I could really understand what you are getting at.

    Hope I've understood correctly - if not then please have another go
  • AdamCordAdamCord Posts: 852 Open or Level 9 Skier
    @Horton fair enough. I know that the mystery zone from wakes to turn is the most confusing for people. I keep saying I'll do some videos like this for higher level stuff. One of these days...
    ToddAEd_Johnson
  • GeppettoGeppetto Posts: 19 Baller
    like it. mor please
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