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Distance From Center - Episode 14 - The Mt Rushmore list (Part 1)

HortonHorton Posts: 30,790 Administrator
edited February 2019 in Videos, Photos & Media

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Comments

  • Cooper_TrelawneyCooper_Trelawney Posts: 240 Baller
    That is the best D.O.C. episode yet. Its like sitting around the lake after a great day and debating who's the best and why. Yet you thoughtfully went back in time to 1980 and even 1970 in one case and had facts to back up your statements. Excellent.

    I like the idea of these categories:
    A. Top 5 Men's Slalom Skiers
    B. Top 5 Women's Slalom Skiers
    C. Top 5 Ski Design Influencers
    D. Top 5 Men's Jumpers
    E. Top 5 Women's Jumpers
    F. Top 5 Trickers (both genders)
    G. Top 5 Coaches
    H. Top 5
    Contributers/volunteers/promoters
    I. Top advertisements/posters on to our teenage wall

    This is a gold mine of debating, digging up memories and having fun debates/conversations.

    Keep it up! Have some fun!
    HortonThan_BoganDangerBoy
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,749 Mega Baller
    So that was a cool convo...thanks for posting. There will be lots of opinions.

    Mapple...no brainer...I'm not even going to write the book that should follow to support that choice.

    Nate...really has to be no brainer and barring tragedy his resume will continue to grow. He has changed the way people ski...and is just gifted. He must see fast moving events in ways the rest of us don't...he's in the zone more often...the zone where the world is in slow motion, the basket looks huge etc...I'm thinking he lives there. You can talk about pushing records at 43 but really? To have a chance how many times do you have to run 41...in a tourney no less. Even when Andy wasn't setting the record he just simply ran 39 again and again. Want to win...Andy made the bar hey you are going to have to run 39 just to have a shot. Nate has damn near made it a situation where hey to have a shot you are going to have to run 41....just silly.

    Bob LaPoint...for sure...absolute ICON.

    Kris...yep...him too. Bob and Kris would not be the same w/out the influence of the other and have had incredible influence on the sport.

    Can't support Asher when compared to these guys as Iconic...tho great skier, too.

    Interesting in the brief women's convo we also have a Mapple and a LaPoint by marriage.

    Agree with Horton's 4 choices on the womens side. Agree if not a mens only list with the list that had Regina on it.

    I also love CP like Horton does...some lists are top 5 all-time but you picked Rushmore and there are only four.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • JordanJordan Posts: 1,264 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited February 2019
    That was fun!

    I would have a men's list, a women's list, and a builder's list. Most Halls of fame in other sports include a builder's category. That recognizes that the sport wouldn't be where it was today without their contributions. It also recognizes that it's different than being an athlete.

    Now, there is just no way to leave Kris Lapointe off of the men's list. 7 Masters titles, 7 U.S. Nationals titles, 7 World records, taking it from [email protected] to [email protected] buoys. Set his first world record at 13 years old!!!!! Tons of influence on ski design over the years.

    In the builders catregory, Herb and Denny are locks, probably Pat Connelly also. Dave Goode brought material science to slalom skis in a huge way. The 9100 was an absolute game changer for the sport. Maybe Rob Shirley and Walter Maloon deserve consideration! Without them we might still be skiing behind outboards!

    WishBruce_ButterfieldJackQ
  • WishWish Posts: 8,295 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited February 2019
    Just for fun .
    The list is not sexy but parallels the monument its compared to.

    George Washington: founder of the greatest nation on earth.

    Ralph Samuelson: founder of the greatest sport on earth.

    -----

    Teddy Roosevelt: influenced the greatest generation on earth.

    Andy Mapple: influenced the greatest ski generation on earth.

    ----

    Thomas Jefferson: founded the rules for the greatest nation on earth.

    Dan B Haines: founded the American Water Ski Association and staged the first national championships for the greatest sport on earth. He created the sport's three competitive disciplines, slalom, tricks, and jumping, and formulated the rules.

    ----

    Abraham Lincoln: held together the greatest nation on earth during its greatest trials.

    The great unknown skier: someone that will hold together our sport during its greatest trials. Not sure we have hit any great trials yet.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    Cooper_Trelawney
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,933 Mega Baller
    edited February 2019
    This topic made me actually watch it!

    Fun stuff.

    I'm amazed by the even-slight hesitation around Nate, although maybe it's a question of criteria. I automatically think skiing dominance and prowess and not "influence." In my mind the exercise went:

    1 Mapple
    2 Nate
    3 start chiseling those two while I think about it some more...

    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,933 Mega Baller
    The women's list might be even more intriguing, because I feel like Regina is the only true slam dunk. After that there are so many greats vying for just three spots!!
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    Horton
  • chris55chris55 Posts: 411 Crazy Baller
    I really loved this episode and when I started watching I made my list with Andy, Bob Lapoint of course then CP and Nate.
    Can't wait for the next one....Thank's for it
    Horton
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,664 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Great episode and fun to watch! I think any shortlist has to include Jeff Rodgers too. Two world records, 16 National records, a world title, first skier to run 41 both at 36 and 34mph.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Chairman of the Board
    AWSA Southern Region EVP
    Cooper_TrelawneyALPJrJWebSki
  • dave2balldave2ball Posts: 833 Crazy Baller
    After watching the video of KLP vs BLP it kind of justifies KLP being one of the 4 pillars of skiing. Running into 39 with hand driving manual timing that why there are 3 in the boat. The third is not a camera. Is a great feat.
    Could Nate Smith Will Asher or CP run into 39 as easily as they do now with 80’s technology? Or should I say lack to technology. Who knows? I’m not taking anything away from there skill or ability by any means but with out Andy BLP or KLP who helped propel the sport in both technique and innovation in both skis and boat design as mentioned earlier it’s hard to not include KLP.
    Cooper_Trelawney6ballsJackQWish
  • Cooper_TrelawneyCooper_Trelawney Posts: 240 Baller
    I think this is now my top 5 list. I know that's one more than a Rushmore list but this is tough! 1. Mapple 2. BLP 3. KLP 4. Rodgers 5. Cox. That leaves Smith, Parrish and Asher on the outside. And imagine not considering Lucky, Carl, Thurley, some European skiers, etc.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,790 Administrator
    @Cooper_Trelawney
    Thurley? I guess there are no wrong answers.

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  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,933 Mega Baller
    @Horton Well, except any list without Mapple on it is a wrong answer.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    9400owolff
  • Cooper_TrelawneyCooper_Trelawney Posts: 240 Baller
    @Horton hahaha! That's fair. Just a personal favorite skier. I liked his crank on 1, 3, 5.
    TylerR
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,790 Administrator
    edited February 2019
    @Cooper_Trelawney I appreciate the semi obscure old school reference. Brett seemed like a good guy to me.

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    Cooper_Trelawney
  • Bill22Bill22 Posts: 1,763 Mega Baller
    edited February 2019
    (bad joke deleted)

    Enjoyed DFC 14.
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,933 Mega Baller
    edited February 2019
    Anybody mind if I semi-hijack this thread to have a "debate" about what the criteria for inclusion should be? I think that might be as fun and contentious as the lists themselves!
    (Indeed, the lists might be relatively obvious if we all agreed on the criteria, which I'm certain we wont!)

    Here's my own take, in order of importance:

    Degree of domination. How much did this person crush the competition of his/her era, weighting heavily toward pro tournament results as opposed to absolute performance.

    Duration of domination. How long could this person have been considered the best slalom skier alive?

    Technique advancement. How much did this person make people scratch their heads and try to understand/emulate his/her technique?

    Promotion of the sport. How much did this person help bring fans, attention, or money into the sport?

    Advancement of the sport. How much did this person contribute to technology and equipment?
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    chris55lpskier
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,790 Administrator
    @Than_Bogan awesome. yes criteria is half the puzzle.

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  • JASJAS Posts: 317 Crazy Baller
    Suyderhoud
  • WishWish Posts: 8,295 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited February 2019
    Jack Travers....now there's some influence and impact on the sport.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    klindy
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,790 Administrator
    edited February 2019
    For those of you who want the PodCast version.... It is still a work in progress but I re-uploaded this episode to correct a tech issue. Follow the below link to get the audio download.

    http://directory.libsyn.com/episode/index/id/8732183


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  • chris55chris55 Posts: 411 Crazy Baller
    The first 2 vhs waterski techniques I watched in late1980s was Mike Suyderhoud explaining how to slalom with Bob Lapoint. I really loved theese but I loaned them and never got them back. So yes Mike Suyderhoud was a thinker for sure.
    ALPJr
  • chris55chris55 Posts: 411 Crazy Baller
    And I was barly skiing on mono at that time and that was when I started dreaming of slaloming :-)
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,749 Mega Baller
    @chris55 cool thing in that vid was a lot of video was taken from a lead boat in front of the MC that was pulling Bob Lapoint...so he was running 38 with a double wake.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • owolffowolff Posts: 6 Baller
    @Than_Bogan i would argue that degree of domination doesn't matter as much-what if they were skiing against similar skiers? Didn't dominate, but they may have still been one of the best ever.
  • DangerBoyDangerBoy Posts: 411 Crazy Baller
    This was a very enjoyable episode but it is such an inmpossible task you've laid out for yourselves. It's so diffucult! So many variables and things to consider. Time period. Technology. Area of importance or influence. How can you weigh off the importance of innovators, builders and designers who've had a massive influence over the progression of the sport and the athletes who've used the things the builders have given them and taken the sport forward in terms of athletic accomplishments? You can't compare athletes who compete on the latest computer designed CNC milled state-of-the-art advanced material composed skis to those who competed on wooden skis or tunnel concave fibreglass wrapped foam core skis, etc. And how can you fairly argue the relative importance of each generation of athlete and builder when each is standing on the shoulders of those that came before them? You can't. Not in my opinion at least.

    If you want to get to the final four for your Mt. Rushmore I think you have to do it like this: Break it down to 4 distinct categories, name the top four of each category then make your final four the top person of each of those four categories. But then, maybe you have to do this for certain distinct eras and have a Mt. Rushmore for each of those eras. (I will leave it to others to decide what those eras should be because I'm not knowledgeable enough in the history of the sport to know this.)

    Here's the four Categories I think that should be argued separately:

    1. Top 4 or 5 Male Athletes/competitors
    2. Top 4 or 5 Female Athletes/Competitors
    3. Top 4 or 5 Builders/designers
    4. I'm not sure what this should be. Combination of Athlete and Builder/Designer maybe? I'll let others debate what this fourth category should be.

    As far as who the top Athletes should be, I agree with @Than_Bogan that you have to look at it in terms of who dominated the sport the most in their time. That way you're comparing that athlete's accomplishments to those of others competing at the same time on the same equipment and with the same tools and technology available to them. Otherwise, you run into arguements like how well would today's top skiers have competed on equipment they had in some earlier decade and how well would the champions/record setters of that era have done if they were competing today on the equipment and with all the technology we have today? If we were talking golf, how well would Jack Nicklaus do if he was in his prime playing today and how well would Brooks Koepka do if he was playing with the clubs and balls and had only the tools at hand that Jack had back in his day? You can't know. You can only speculate. The same goes for athletes skiing back in an earlier day vs today.
    I can take anything apart
  • CBR51CBR51 Posts: 127 Baller
    Hard to decide on 4. Andy, BLP, Nate, KLP, Wade.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,790 Administrator
    food for thought...

    Whitney is CLEARLY one of the best female slalom skiers of all time but she skis in Regina's shadow. It is not that Whit is not great but that ski is skiing against perhaps the greatest female skier of all time.

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