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Loading the rope

MarcoMarco Posts: 1,409 Crazy Baller
edited September 2010 in Technique & Theory
<p>
I've been taught for years to try not to load the rope until behind the boat.  I was skiing with someone today who told me at 38 I should be loading earlier, from further outside, with the load completed by the first wake.  I was skeptical, but gave it a try and had the nicest, slowest 1 ball, where ususally at 38 I feel like I am flying into the buoys. 
</p>
<p>
Question for all you shortline guys.  Where do you load, and release load, and does it change at different lengths. Thx.
</p>

Comments

  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,476 Mega Baller
    <p>
    I really can't be the first to answer this, because it's pretty obvious that I don't actually KNOW how to run -38 -- I've only done it twice in practice and that was a few years ago.
    </p>
    <p>
    But I'm extremely interested and perhaps I'll jump back in later with some thoughts and/or questions.
    </p>
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • jdarwinjdarwin Posts: 1,379 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    <p>
    Whatever Skidawg says - do it.  He runs 39 regularly and is a great coach.  He always tells me to wait and load right behind the boat.  With ZO, this works well.  If I load early at the ball, the boat wins before I'm in a good position to move the ski out off the 2nd wake.   ZO has changed the way most of us ski.  Ward?
    </p>
    Joe Darwin
  • I drove Mueller today. He loads right behind the boat at 36. In fact, as he's gotten more acustomed to ZO, he's become more and more progressive and moved his work zone from "buoy to the first wake" to "white water to centerline"
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • 35 in the bag35 in the bag Posts: 76 Baller
    <p>
    This topic/conclusion to "load behind the boat", which implies "not loading wide" or "nearer the ball", has always defied logic for me. It seems to me that we "must" achieve a certain minimum speed (x) by the time we cross the boat path in order to have the momentum (stored energy) to carry us out to the next ball. Now the problem is.....how to obtain the speed.  If one begins acceleration nearer the ball, one has more time and distance to create the required speed (x) and therefor the rate of acceleration (and load) is less.  If one waits to load only behind the boat, then the rate of acceleration (load) must be higher in order to achieve speed (x).
    </p>
    <p>
    Now all of this is presumes that other variables don't interfer. 
    </p>
    <p>
    Frankly, I have ridden in the boat to witness numerious 38/39 skiers turn on a tight line and hook-up wide, light and early. They seem to master the ability to turn sharp and conserve more of thier speed, yet not over turn.
    </p>
    <p>
    Bring on the arguments...I want to learn the error of my ways.
    </p>
    <p>
    JIII
    </p>
    John M
    I used to think that ski tuning might be more complicated than Rocket Science.........
    Now I know it is..
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,476 Mega Baller
    <p>
    (Please keep in mind my own inability to run -38 in reading this.  These are just my theories.) 
    </p>
    <p>
    35itb, you bring up conserving speed and I think that is very important to this discussion.  If by "loading up" you mean maximim force on your body, then doing so out near the ball represents a mistake -- for the very reason that it could only happen if you had given up too much of your speed at the end of the turn and now have to "restart."
    </p>
    <p>
    But that doesn't mean you're NOT trying to generate angle and speed all the way out there at the ball.  Quite the contrary -- you want to set a good angle immediately and begin adding to your speed (in the cross-course direction) right away.  But, in part thanks to the geometry, the heaviest load on the body should fall directly behind the boat, when the rope is aligned with the enemy (aka the boat travel direction).
    </p>
    <p>
    Changing gears a little, I find that <em>psychologically</em> I need to pull longer at -35 and -38.  But when I watch video I'm not <em>actually</em> pulling longer.  I think this has to do with carrying more speed on each successive chop of the rope, so if I mentally cue off my speed, then I let up my pull too soon.  This means I have to hold it longer than my instinct is telling me in order to succeed.
    </p>
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • <p>
    I believe it it a blend of load, ie, start the load at the completion of the turn, (make sure it is finished) then progressively load as to explode through the second wake with the ski in front of you bringing on an automatic edge change or transition. what most of us do is load sharply at the end of the turn and then ZO or the boat pulls us out of position by the second wake.  watch Parrish and he gets a lot done just in the turn which takes him half way to the white water then he progressively loads into his edge change. I think we can only load for about a second unitl we start to lose it, so you want to "lose it" when you want to anyway or at the transition...this should lead to a great carry out with "free momentum", or a swing with out more work.
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
    <p>
    thoughts?
    </p>
  • skidawgskidawg Posts: 3,291 Mega Baller
    Load as late as possible, release as early as possible! Parish is perfect example. I try to ride the ski through the turn wo loading the line until I'm behind the boat. Low handle move the ski out aggressivly to set width at the ball control the handle. Drivin now post mo ltr
    Mr. Mom is Horton's favorite movie!
  • h2odawg79h2odawg79 Posts: 599 Baller
    edited September 2010
    <p>
    The Pendulum effect, Like being on a swing set fully illustrates the optimum Loads and their relationship to effeciency...
    </p>
    <p>
    Setting  skis on a hard edge in the snow will slow down or stop fwd progress. Doing this same thing on water at the wrong time (Like I do) creates about 900lbs. of unuseable line load that Slows the skier enough to eventually end the pass or exhaust the skier...   
    </p>
    HOO HAW! thankya very much
  • skidawgskidawg Posts: 3,291 Mega Baller
    Yrs, but zo is much more user friendly if u load behind the boat, no one is gifted enough to ski like the great one! Now give me PP classic, early load all day long.
    Mr. Mom is Horton's favorite movie!
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,118
    <div>
    I have skied with Andy and fully understand with what he is saying. It is beneficial to maximize your leveraged position as you complete your lean right after the hookup. The key is to maximize your lean. i.e.: feel the rope, then relax, while staying in your lean. This sets maximum edge angle on the ski, allowing the rocker to take effect. The ski will act as if it is in a turn and drive your knees towards you. Stay in your lean through the first half of the edge change. This creates the reverse C, right before the boat pulls you over. You can really gain carryout angle by assisting the knees and setting the edge for more carryout, creating more space between you and the buoy.
    </div>
    <div>
    I hope bmiller doesn't read this because it will definitely go over his head then he will try to vilify me as he did on the ZO article. I bet Marco, MS, and Than get it instantly.
    </div>
    <div>
    </div>
    <div>
    Ski Well,  ED
    </div>
    Special Thanks to Performance Ski and Surf and the Denali Adam's !!!
  • h2odawg79h2odawg79 Posts: 599 Baller
    <p>
    Ed, can you reitterate; " i.e.: feel the rope, <strong><em>then relax</em></strong>, while staying in your lean".  -your basically saying; "Fall back" into your leveraged (stacked) position, right?
    </p>
    <p>
    "This sets <strong><em>maximum edge angle</em></strong> on the ski"  -Not trying to split Hairs, just trying to understand your statement. Is it MAXIMUM or OPTIMUM?
    </p>
    <p>
    Thanx!
    </p>
    HOO HAW! thankya very much
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,118
    <div>
    Brent,
    </div>
    <div>
    </div>
    <div>
    Your absolutely correct, I apologize.....ED
    </div>
    Special Thanks to Performance Ski and Surf and the Denali Adam's !!!
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,118
    <div>
    h2odawg,
    </div>
    <div>
    </div>
    <div>
    </div>
    <div>
    Your assessment is correct, stacked and optimum work for me.
    </div>
    <div>
    </div>
    <div>
    To elaborate on the rope: At Nationals last year I bought a PowerVest from Dave to experiment with. On the PV, you adjust the straps to catch you at the amount of lean you desire. I set mine for a 38off lean. Using the PV you fall back and you feel the PV catch you and you relax. You should now be in your leveraged, stacked  position. This taught me a valuable lesson getting use to the feel of it catching you. The problem with the PV for me was it felt restrictive in my ability to counter-rotate with my hips and use angulation.
    </div>
    <div>
    However, I found I could use the ROPE for the same feeling of having it " Catch You" like the PV did. The difference being you had to adjust the PV as to where it would catch you but the rope would catch me at my optimum lean, no adjustment necessary. As you shorten the rope the lean will automatically increase.
    </div>
    <div>
    So this now became a game of starting my lean off the apex to initiate acceleration, plus sliding and skiing my hip to the handle, while continuing to complete my lean, in the direction of travel, till the rope CATCHES ME....Then relax, while maintaining the lean, to allow the legs to compress through the edge change
    </div>
    <div>
    I could go on and on about elbows to the vest, two hands on the handle, and sustained angular momentum etc., but I think you get the picture at this point.
    </div>
    <div>
    Wow, this is a lot easier to show someone in person that to try to print it out.
    </div>
    <div>
    </div>
    <div>
    </div>
    <div>
    Forgive the Lengthy Post,   ED
    </div>
    Special Thanks to Performance Ski and Surf and the Denali Adam's !!!
  • h2odawg79h2odawg79 Posts: 599 Baller
    <p>
    Thanx Ed! -Great explanation.
    </p>
    <p>
    One day I may just have to try out the 'ol PV...
    </p>
    HOO HAW! thankya very much
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,118
    <p>
    Dawg,
    </p>
    <p>
    My point was you use the Rope just like it was the PowerVest. I sold my PV some time ago, but what I learned from it was very valuable.
    </p>
    <p>
    Ski Well, ED
    </p>
    Special Thanks to Performance Ski and Surf and the Denali Adam's !!!
  • h2odawg79h2odawg79 Posts: 599 Baller
    <p>
    Ed,
    </p>
    <p>
    I understood and I remembered you had once said you sold yours. But, your explanation of your findings just gave me another reason to try one out! I tend to want to turn, <u>lean </u>and pull everything as if i were 38 off!!! -only to be chewed up and then spit out by 340 ponies...
    </p>
    HOO HAW! thankya very much
  • MarcoMarco Posts: 1,409 Crazy Baller
    Thanks for all the input.  Just got off the water, and realized that intensity (or lack of) is as important as the loction of the load.  I was mainly working on gates at 35, and found that when I eased into the load, and didn't overdo it, I was able to get just as high and wide, but in much more control than when I hit it harder.  Too much speed at the ball has been my enemy at 35 and 38, and backing off the throttle really seemed to help.  I didn't realize how hard I was loading until I backed off it today.  Maybe this concept will eventually get me through 38???
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,118
    <div>
    Marco,
    </div>
    <div>
    </div>
    <div>
    First of all, glad to here your back on the water....... Your absolutely right about "throttle" control at 35 &38. I feel 35 is where short line skiing begins, and in the age of ZO it is very easy to overpower the shorter line lengths. Smooth and light on the line really pays off. I know you'll be deep into that 38 in no time.
    </div>
    <div>
    Once again, glad to hear your back........ED
    </div>
    Special Thanks to Performance Ski and Surf and the Denali Adam's !!!
  • MarcoMarco Posts: 1,409 Crazy Baller
    <p>
    Thanks Ed!  It has been exactly a year since my achilles surgery, and I'm still not 100%, but I'm just glad to be skiing.
    </p>
    <p>
    I've never been accused of being light on the line, and can definately be a scrapper sometimes.  How and when you load the rope, can make the difference between skiing with finesse and without it.  In order to pick up more buoys, I need to focus on the finess part.  Avoiding big variations of speed through the course is going to be one of my focuses for what is left of our too short Colorado season. 
    </p>
  • ktm300ktm300 Posts: 406 Baller
    I skied with a former world record holder last Sunday. Same thing. Told me I needed to be picking up the line more from out wide. Doesn't mean harder just sooner. He moved my gate shot down course 30 feet. At first it all translated into harder from the outside because the bells were going off in my head at turn in because I felt late, late, late. First set I was almost hitting left gate. By the second set, my brain slowed it down and I was in the middle or closer to the right. That initial angle at turn in did set up a pass where the line was tighter sooner. My job is to learn to ride that tighter line without loading it up. Previously, I skied quite a bit with a coach who taught me not to load the line off the ball. At the time, I pulled right off the buoy. Really taught me to ski with a really light line. Was in the boat when he skied with a strain gauge on the rope. As soon as his ski completed the turn the load was 650lbs. However, if you and the ski are really moving well through the turn you don't feel loaded up. Easier said than done. With the later gate and more angle, the ski spent a lot less time pointing down course at the buoys. Turns were snappier. Looking forward to hearing how you guys are melding the two concepts of light on the line and picking it up out wide.
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