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How would you interpretate these rules pretaining to elite overall skiers

Rule 102 E. Not being able to ski in more than one class or division in same event in the same round at one tournament and may not ski more than 3 rounds in an event with exceptions of skiers using the option in rule 3.03 Elite Skier Overall. (see rule 1.09, 3.03F and rule 13. 3.03F (4) Tournaments with Placement like Regionals and Nationals may ski in the Elite division for placement and must also ski a second time in their age division event, for overall score purposes only, if desiring to compete for Overall placement. If you wish to look these rules up and don't have a rule book handy go to AWSA click on 3 event then go down page and click on rule book.

Comments

  • DragoDrago Posts: 1,578 Mega Baller
    Day you're 26 and ski Open SL (only):Can't ski OM and M2 in the same tournament.. But, if you're skiing for M2 overall at Regionals and Nationals you can ski M2 in all 3 and OM SL
    SR SL Judge & Driver (“a driver who is super late on the wheel and is out of sync”)
  • sheskis7sheskis7 Posts: 47 Baller
    You're right about that Drago. But if a skier is skiing for open overall in reg & nationals then they ski a 2nd time in age division for overall score purposes only, if desiring to compete for Over-all placement. Check out m1 slalom at Nationals along with open men overall. 2 open overall skiers skied m1 slalom, one winning the event and the other placing out of medals. This is rule 3.03 F (4) do you see this as a rule violation?
  • DragoDrago Posts: 1,578 Mega Baller
    I think if they qualify to ski OA, they cannot ski any age division event....
    SR SL Judge & Driver (“a driver who is super late on the wheel and is out of sync”)
  • Not_The_PugNot_The_Pug Posts: 595 Crazy Baller
    Question, did they ski in Open only to try and qualify for America's cup, not placement. Not sure how that all worked, but I know a couple of B3 that were trying to qualify for America's Cup and skied twice.
  • sheskis7sheskis7 Posts: 47 Baller
    No they weren't trying to qualify for the American Cup. They were sking open men's overall and the rule for that is 3.03 F (4) when skiing for placement such as reg. and Nationals , may ski in Elite for placement. and must ski a second time in age division event for overall score purposes only, if desiring to compete for Overall placement.
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,293 Mega Baller
    @sheskis7 You need to also include 3.03F (3) -

    3. LEVEL 10: Skiers having an Elite Level 10 rating in Overall, and wishing to compete for Overall, may only do so in the Elite Division and shall be required to ski all three events in that Elite Division. However, this does not prevent a skier with individual rankings below Level 10 in one or two events from competing in Overall Elite and also age division for placement in those single events.

    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
    AWSA Southern Region EVP
  • RDMRDM Posts: 3 New Baller
    There is no Rule that allows a skier to take a second Ride in an Age Division Event for Placement nor a Rule that allows a skier to take a second Ride for Elite Overall score purposes only, not for placement. There is clearly only one exception to allow for a second ride as an exception to 1.02E and that is found at 3.03F4. The two skiers you note at Nationals were in clear violation of the Rules and all M1 skiers should demand corrections made.

    The sentence added to 3.03F3 is true as the ONLY Rule that prevents a skier with individual rankings below Level 10 in one or two events from competing in Overall Elite and also age division for placement in those single events is 1.02E. This sentence can be added to every other Rule in the Rulebook and be true EXCEPT 1.02E.

    This is only an attempt to cover up the Rules violations that occurred at the 2018 Nationals when secret Rules were afforded to a certain skier to allow him to take a National title and place in another Age Division Event that under the published Rules, he was ineligible to compete.

    There is no Rule that allows a skier to ski an Elite Event for any reason other than placement nor should there be!!!! Why would that be good for the sport?

    We should promote increased competition among the Age Division Events and certainly not try to allow Elite qualified skiers to ski Age Division Events for Placement after also skiing in Elite Events.
    EricKelleywalleye
  • sheskis7sheskis7 Posts: 47 Baller
    History Lesson: Until 1973 everyone skied in age divisions, no one complained about skiing in events against the best skiers in the country, it made for true competition of course everyone didn't go home with medals. Then came open men & open women these were actually exciting events to watch (the qualifications to ski in open were high so a skier had to be a LaPoint, Liz Allen not just anyone who wanted to ski open) and that was a goal a lot of people had was to ski against the best, even if they were at the bottom. Then 30 years later came MM slalom, it was good but it took a lot of excitement away from age division. Then 2009 MM 3 event then MW. These events are for just a few people to win medals. Skiing is about competition and most skiers are staying in their age
    division because of the competition. I don't remember hearing a skier said they would rather not ski then ski against the best in their age division. Think we should bring true competition to the sport and make it interesting and fun to watch.
    walleye
  • RDMRDM Posts: 3 New Baller
    Men 1 skiers should unite and get the placements at 2018 Nationals and 2019 Regionals and Nationals corrected in accordance with the Rules. It is ridiculous to have Rules that are not applicable to certain select skiers in order to allow them to medal in Age Division Events. Adding at sentence to say a Rule doesn't prevent something is not saying the same as a Rule allowing something. It is simply inapplicable.....
  • unksskisunksskis Posts: 352 Baller
    Doesn't seem that hard. Ski in the Elite event for placement that one is qualified for, they may not be Elite in all 3. Ski other events in age due to qualifications, and ski the event one ski'd Elite again with the age group, not for individual placement but for overall. Seemed to work properly, and I think it is great, and encourages more Elite participation in individual events.
    RDM
  • RDMRDM Posts: 3 New Baller
    unksskis.............I agree completely!!!! That is how the rules read and how it should be. GREAT for the sport. The more Elite qualified skiers move out of Age Division improves competition for the majority(not minority) of the sport - Age Division skiers. This sport will never grow from the top down and continually catering to there Elite qualified skiers has done nothing positive for the majority of those that are involved in the sport.

    Now they are trying to facilitate Elite Skiers to be able to ski in Elite Events and then also Age Division for Placement. Totally RIDICULOUS and terrible for the sport.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,757 Administrator
    I've always been a proponent of eliminating Masters and open divisions at Nationals. We are an age division driven sport. Why have an arbitrary cut-off at which point the skiers move to another division. If you're going to do that you might as well go full-on ability-based for everyone.

    Since that's not ever going to happen we have the rules as they are. As I understand it if because of overall some athletes ski into divisions they must declare in which division they're competing for placement.

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  • sheskis7sheskis7 Posts: 47 Baller
    agree with Horton, skiing is about competition against skiers in age division, but as I stated in my history lesson in 1973 they came out with OM & OW and it's worked for years there was no age restrictions but the skier had to qualify for their events and if they couldn't make it in open they could ski in their age division, but scores didn't carry over and it just meant they didn't ski over-all. But, they were proud to ski in open. It just seems like the truly open skiers should want to ski in open at Nationals, this is where they all got there start.
  • EricKelleyEricKelley Posts: 282 Crazy Baller
    The way I read the rules only the skiers who have an Overall Open Rating and have less than a level 9 rating in one or two events could compete in age division events for placement. This would make a couple skiers in Men 1 ineligible. It is pretty clear but I heard an unsubstantiated report that Jeff Surdey sent emails to the Elite skiers informing them that they could do this. Maybe he can chime in here and clarify things. 2019 is over but there needs to be some sort of explanation of why the rules were not followed and what we should expect for next season.
    mjump
  • nikandstevenikandsteve Posts: 57 Baller
    It is mind-boggling the number of adult skiers that ski in their age division at Reg/Nat yet are qualified in higher divisions. Isn’t it the goal to get to the next level or nah?
    Drago
  • sheskis7sheskis7 Posts: 47 Baller
    My theory on this are they are staying in their age division because that's where the competiton is if they just want to win medals than MM Overall usually only has 1 or 2 skiers but age division might have 20 or more.
  • EricKelleyEricKelley Posts: 282 Crazy Baller
    Finally makes sense as I found out that the AWSA BOD gave exception to the Elite rules to allow Americas Cup skiers to participate without being subject to the normal rules.
  • sheskis7sheskis7 Posts: 47 Baller
    Then why were same skiers allowed to do this at regionals???
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 2,747 Mega Baller
    Can of worms.
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


    VONMAN
  • sheskis7sheskis7 Posts: 47 Baller
    To EricKelly, What did the
    American Cup have to do with allowing the elite to ski in age division on Saturday, Open and the American Cup were on Wednesday.
  • EricKelleyEricKelley Posts: 282 Crazy Baller
    Makes no sense at Regionals unless the exception included the Regionals and Nationals. I thought that the qualifying rounds for the Americas Cup was considered the Open Slalom.
  • sheskis7sheskis7 Posts: 47 Baller
    Go figure this out on Wed. they did not qualify for the American Cup. Skied open on Wednesday and they skied OM Division, with score of 110. (open) Then on Saturday back to M1 division? So what were the exceptions to the rules that BOD made? Things like rules exceptions should be made public at the tournament site for AWSA members to know what is going on and keep everything above board.
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