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Is "Edging" the the next level of stack and lean?

HortonHorton Posts: 28,757 Administrator
What is below is not a complete idea. This is the beginning of a thesis. I think I have stumbled on a concept that is known by the super elite and is likely useless to 99% of the skiing public. I also suspect this concept is increasingly valid at 38 and shorter – perhaps impractical for skiers not running at least 35(?).

For now I am going to call the new concept “Edging”.

Edging is a refinement on leaning and stack. Edging is the act of holding cross course direction & rolling the ski over as much as with a traditional lean but with less upper body lean.

I think Freddie's is the best example of what I am talking about. Shoulders are level, head is up, and his lower body is leaned away just as much as if he were in a more traditional stack. This top image of Freddie is the most dramatic image of the Edge idea I can find.





Joel is a more traditional stack


Sacha in more of an Edging stance


Asher and JT in a traditional stack - (not saying these guys do not use Edging stance)



@TFIN .... using a mild edge? Whatever he is doing it looks light and amazing.



@TFIN looking more like a traditional stack



Manon in a is more of an edge than a traditional lean.



Terry doing his verson



So Why is Edging better? Why might this be a big deal for some skiers?
When I have been found myself in an edging position I have had all the speed angle I would with a more Lucky Lowe or Jeff Rogers style lean but with less load on my upper body AND a much less frantic feeling approaching the wakes.
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Comments

  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,757 Administrator
    @MarcusBrown half of this concept came from your brother. If I completely misunderstand please explain.
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  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,584 Mega Baller
    @Horton Was it the lower half?
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    MarcusBrownNot_The_Pugjipster43andjules
  • MarcusBrownMarcusBrown Posts: 179 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    Sorry @Horton , sometimes my sarcasm doesn't come thru....

    I think this is actually a very compelling line of thinking, and one that has a lot of grey area.

    My initial aversion comes from prior history: I don't want people to start dropping there hips away from the boat,....the same trap folks fell into when we created West Coast Slalom. In most cases, this devolves to a butt back position, that increases the attack angle of the ski, and as a result, the load on the line.... and decreases efficiency.

    However, I definitely believe there is a compelling case for the following: The roll angle of the ski (in concert with the trim [ski tip up or ski tip down]) and the lean angle of the skiers body, can definitely be doing different things, at different times....and in fact, the lean angle of different parts of the skiers body can, and should, be doing different things at different times.

    I think thats the bit that contains a lot of value...and I think thats what you are getting at here, with this discussion spark.

    TFIN6ballsdrewski32Jordan
  • MillerTime38MillerTime38 Posts: 373 Crazy Baller
    edited August 2019
    It’s interesting that all the skiers pictured as “edging” are in their onside lean and traditional stacked skiers are in their off side lean (offside meaning right foot forward going from odd to even buoys and left foot forward going from even to odd buoys). What do the “edging” skiers look like on their offside leans?

    I always found it easier to accomplish an “edging” lean on my onside lean, either I am not flexible enough or athletic enough to accomplish in my offside lean, I would always find myself in a butt back position like Marcus mentioned
    6ballsandjules
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,757 Administrator
    edited August 2019
    @MillerTime38 I am super inflexible but I "feel" the effect leaving off side. I would not be surprised if, on the one day where I think I really had this going, that it hardly looked different but it really felt different.
    No Video proof :-(
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  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,757 Administrator
    Anything that results on the skier’s center of mass moving back is WRONG. I can see where you would read what I wrote above and think it was promoting some sort of squat position. I am not. I think this is a very subtle thing for most skiers.

    Now I look at photos of Sacha and think I see him Edging but also think his mass might be farther back than it could be. In the case of @FWinter I think his mass is always forward but he has super human ankle bend so it looks like he might be back.

    As @MarcusBrown said there are a LOT of shades of grey here. If I really really understood this I would be explaining it instead of poking you guys to talk about it.

    I wish I had good video of @ColeGiacopuzzi when his 39 off gate is really clicking. He makes a $h*t load of speed with what looks like very little effort. His center of mass is forward and the ski is rolled over "enough" but his shoulders and upper mass are not driving away from the pylon. I have been watching this for years and wondering WTF going on there.
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  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,584 Mega Baller
    @FWinter So now I actually have to pay attention to this thread!?
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  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,757 Administrator
    @theboardingschool Interesting. It is no secret that I promote the idea of "straight legs" but when we enter the realm of elte skiers I see how that is increasingly impractical. In my way of thinking straight legs is how skiers at my level and below can get their mass forward or centered. If I could use my ankles the way Freddie does I would.
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    Than_BoganSo_I_Ski
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,320 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @theboardingschool how many of us can put our ass so low to the ski like Fred? I realize he may be more the extreme and there are degrees in the middle.

    Clearly there are different ways to skin the same cat given there are high end skiers in both styles...

    It makes some logical sense to think that traditional stack utilizes a longer and straighter lever arm...but probably requires being lower to the water in terms of upper body to achieve the same ski attitude.

    There is a reason that really high end snow skiers get legs parralel to the hill and hips low while keeping the body upright.

    I see down hillers like go-karts in driving. Not a lot of horsepower so do all you can do to both achieve and maintain speed...this wins the race in similarly equipped karts.

    This should apply favorably to slalom skiing as well. My guess is the stacked skiers require more personal horsepower, are a bit less efficient, and require more upper body movement swings around axis which increases the degree of difficulty.

    Having said that...I'm an inflexbile rod so not all options are available to all of us...I do what I can with what I've been given.

    Dave Ross--die cancer die
    So_I_Ski
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,757 Administrator
    @6balls I think looking at @FWinter's leg bend is deceiving. He has flexibility and strength that few other skiers have. As an old guy I do NOT want to try to copy that part of his skiing.
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  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 5,989 Mega Baller
    The first thing I thought when I looked at some of those "edging" pictures was that I don't think my back could survive it. It may be efficient for a super high end skier but I think for most average joes we would wind up where @MarcusBrown warned against and for me I think it would result in a worse back than I already have.
    Mark Shaffer
  • wawaskrwawaskr Posts: 262 Solid Baller
    It seems that it is hard to decipher by looking at still shots of skiers, what I have noticed over the years is that each person has their own style (while accomplishing the same fundamental technique), and then these discussion get into the *gray areas* as Marcus noted.
    Matt
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,757 Administrator
    @Chef23 Edging as I try to apply it is not more stress on my back. In fact it is less load.
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  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,177
    edited September 2019
    I've played back and forth with this for years. The difference for me is that in traditional stack I lead with my lead shoulder, R going R, L going L, and with the "Edging Stack" I focus on leading with my hips.

    The best place to try this is on the gate pullout. You have time to feel the effects of each. The problem I have is in the course where things are moving much faster. The traditional lean for me is easier to pull off. Agree with Horton, you have to be very flexible to pull off the Edging lean properly. When things start moving fast, it's easy for your hips to start dropping behind. I don't mean squat, but not in a forward leading position.

    Bottom line, it comes down to what is the best way for you to move Mass Forward and be as efficient as YOU can be.

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  • bigtex2011bigtex2011 Posts: 499 Crazy Baller
    Ive been told that the goal is to really block the load of the boat without losing position. That could probably look alot of different ways
  • jercranejercrane Posts: 321 Crazy Baller
    Shiffrin


    Liggety


    Winter


    The upper body is quite different since the load is coming from gravity vs boat but the lower body dynamics are interesting to me. Especially the clear separation between upper and lower.

    Of course I probably have no business commenting on a thread about short line technique but I find it fascinating how the evolution of slalom is getting closer to a lot of Alpine Skiing technique. As someone who grew up ski racing this give me hope. :)
    So_I_Ski
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,757 Administrator
    edited September 2019
    @jercrane Comparisons between snow skiing and water skiing rarely if ever make sense in the long run. The core idea I am exploring is really about the skiers upper torso and shoulders.

    I also suspect that that image of @fWinter is deceiving. It looks like his mass is back on the ski and I bet it is not.
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    jercrane
  • gregygregy Posts: 2,583 Mega Baller
    This is something I've been noticing lately too. I disagree with Joel not doing it. Maybe not as much as Freddy.


  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,757 Administrator
    @gregy hmm I see your point
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  • gregygregy Posts: 2,583 Mega Baller
    The only reason I noticed this is because I've been forced to rethink my skiing. I'm skiing the best I've every skied using the "tall and stiff" approach as boardingschool says, but its hard on my back due to the compressive force on my spine. Plus I had a top level coach that said being more open and upright would help with my tendency to pull too long. There was a video on here of Matthew Brown that actually really got me looking at this.
    Zman
  • DragoDrago Posts: 1,588 Mega Baller
    Often what is described should not be taken 100% literally. Coaches describe in extremes so that you feel a quantifiable difference
    SR SL Judge & Driver (“a driver who is super late on the wheel and is out of sync”)
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  • JackQJackQ Posts: 319 Crazy Baller
    I believe often skiers over think the nuances of the sport. Counter rotate, don’t counter rotate, do this or that with your free hand, correct hand up on handle, drop your hips, don’t drop your hips, now edge don’t pull. Too much for an old man!

    When I get in funk and start overthinking, I return to Bob LaPont’s advice, “Turn hard, but pull harder!” I.E keep your ski tip down, maintain your body position and don’t give up.

    However I never hear much discussion one what a I think is one of the critical factors to skiing, especially real short line (39,41 and to a lesser degree 38) and can’t really been seen or practiced other than through repetitions, and that is timing. Turning in a foot too soon, or too late, changing edges a little to soon or late, all result in making a pass much harder or impossible. This often can be the difference between a good skier and a great skier.

    All I can discern is when an elite skier doesn’t have to make adjustments, that they have great timing. I wish I knew a drill to improve this skill, as I believe my hardest makeable pass would become more routine.
    ZmanGloersenWishCooper_Trelawney
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,757 Administrator
    @Wish you are right. all that matters is determination. talking about technique is a waste of time. maybe I will just delete this forum so you are not distracted attempts at intelligent conversation.
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    Zman
  • WishWish Posts: 7,974 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited September 2019
    Just some levity as I saw this pic as opposite to the discussion and then some. I see some others found the humor. This thread is actually a good and welcomed discussion all recent threads considered. Keep it going please. I find myself to be in the camp of both straight stack and "edging". Just depends on which direction I'm going.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
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