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How large is the possible zone of 1/4 ball depending on rope length?

HortonHorton Posts: 28,780 Administrator
edited November 2019 in Rules/Politics/Issues
@Bruce_Butterfield and I had a disagreement in another thread about a 1/4 vs 1/2 ball and it got me thinking.

How far can a skier go past the ball at any line length without crossing back to score a 1/2. At 15 - 28 off you can ski down the lake outside the ball line. At 35 off I am guessing 15 or 20 feet is a long way down the lake for the 1/2.

Any of you math / physics geeks want to theorize on this?
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Comments

  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 2,901 Mega Baller
    Depends on how much speed has been generated to carry the mass down the bouy line.
    And or how much speed gets scrubbed off due to friction!
    I am sure some mathematic engineer already has a program and formula to answer this stupid question!
    Wait! maybe the answer lies in rope elongation too!!
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,381 Mega Baller
    Ya, what Than said!
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,780 Administrator
    edited November 2019
    @Than_Bogan in your 38 example you assuming that the skier is going the same speed as the boat and is at maximum width (parallel to the pylon)?
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  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,586 Mega Baller
    @Horton Yes. Obviously this can't be maintained long term, but I bet the maximum distance is shockingly far with just the right set up. (Jump skis?)
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • rfarfa Posts: 258 Baller
    Sounds like a lot of effort just to avoid getting 1/2 buoy...didn't know 1/4 buoys were so much better...but I'll look into jump skis...LOL
    Rui Afonso
    Than_Bogan
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,780 Administrator
    edited November 2019
    @Than_Bogan I almost gave you a panda for that comment. Let's assume the skier is on a slalom ski and attempting maximum score.
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  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,586 Mega Baller
    edited November 2019
    @Horton If you ask a nerd what is possible, they answer with what is possible. That would have been a sweet way to finally earn a panda, though!!

    With your new assumptions in place, any skier at any moderately short line length will exit the 1/4 zone almost instantly if the ski turns past parallel with the boat. The only realistic way to get a quarter is to lose the handle while still going outbound, and in 90% of those cases the true score (with video assist) is 0 because the skier either never went outside or lost the handle before the front foot entered the 1/4 zone.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • ZmanZman Posts: 1,585 Mega Baller
    To @Than_Bogan 's point, is why I scored 4-1/2 in the other thread. About 6 feet past the buoy the ski has drifted inside the buoy line by a foot or two, by necessity. Impossible for the ski to stay 38 feet out with 34 feet of rope and skier not laid out at all.
    The only argument is did the ski go outside the buoy. I say it did. What 'deflected' the buoy was her ski boot.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,780 Administrator
    @Than_Bogan this subject is one of my personal pet peeves. I think a lot of judges don't understand how improbable a quarter ball is. It happens and I think there is value in awarding quarter balls where appropriate but I think it happens far less often than what we see in the score books.
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    ZmanA_B
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,780 Administrator
    @Zman in regards to the Regina video I really don't know. I've been told that there is a much higher resolution video that shows she did get around the buoy. Unfortunately IWSF published a video where it looks like she did not get around the buoy.
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  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,586 Mega Baller
    Well, the most fun I ever had at Regionals ended in winning a run-off with a 1.25 @ -38 that I bet would have been a 1 with slow-motion replay, so I can't complain too much about this being essentially impossible to call correctly at full speed!
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,381 Mega Baller
    The problem is judges want to reward style points, meaning a full half buoy where the skier almost gets to the wakes vs a barely got the ski around the buoy half.

    The same problem happens with a full buoy call. Judges dont award a full buoy because the skier was in a bad "skiing position". However the rule book says a skiing position not a good skiing position.
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,381 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited November 2019
    While I’d fully agree that to score 1/4 is difficult especially at short rope lengths, it IS still possible. I’d even argue that at very short rope lengths is possible to happen MORE often at -38 and shorter than other longer lines.

    Falls/misses at the buoy with very short lines come in essentially three basic forms - clearly inside the buoy (miss), clearly outside the buoy/overturn and fall (1/2), or a scenario where the skier is very late into the buoy and either gets around or goes inside the buoy with the ski still headed outbound. At that point either they make some kind of turn towards the wake and (I agree) it’s hard to score 1/4. Or they continue outbound until they lose the handle or fall. Or the ski hits the buoy and either they ski away or fall.

    Either way on the last scenario the ski is headed away from the centerline and to suggest that just passing the buoy by a few inches MUST make it a 1/2 isn't correct. If the ski is outside the buoy line 6, 8 or 10 feet before the buoy on a well executed turn that same ski can be outside the buoy line that far after the buoy if the turn was started very late.

    To be clear I would have called the score 4-1/2 in the video if I felt she skied outside the buoy in the first place.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
    AWSA Southern Region EVP
    Zman6ballsThan_Bogan
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