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Distance From Center – Episode 31 (Eddie Roberts Jr. & 500 French Scores)

HortonHorton Posts: 29,738 Administrator
edited December 2019 in Videos, Photos & Media

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9400ski6jones

Comments

  • HortonHorton Posts: 29,738 Administrator
    edited December 2019
    If anyone wants a longer and more detailed version of the video click here


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    9400
  • 94009400 Posts: 644 Crazy Baller
    Excellent reporting, thanks for the info and the opinions. Let’s make straight and centered the standard.
    slow
  • HortonHorton Posts: 29,738 Administrator
    Below are my show notes if anyone wants more information.
      1. Miscellaneous

        1. small event in England there is no video. Claim is equipment failure. No huge scores. No impact on world rankings.

        2. At another event in England Tom Poole lost a score because the driver was out of tolerance at one ball at 39 off. 

        3. A single score of 1.25 at 41 @ 55k knocked down for no video in France

      2. No Video

        1. Bordeaux ProAm about 100 scores were thrown out including 7 scores into 41 and one 1.5 @ 43 for Fred  ( 19FRA028 )

        2. Malibu Open 20 scores including a 6 @ 41 for Asher ( 19FRA032 )

          1. For rounds that had video Sacha lost a 3 @ 41 for path

      3. 9 different scores into 41 were reduced for bad boat path at 39 or 41 (all in France  - 3 sanctions) ( Sacha, Pigozzi & JT all lost a big score at Fungliss)

      4. Under Review ( Presumably for boat path)

        1. Small event at Bordeaux approx 160 scores thrown out ( 19FRA007 )

        2. Baurech Classic about 200 scores were thrown out including a score of 6 @ 41 for Sacha ( 19FRA008 )

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  • ForrestGumpForrestGump Posts: 6,137
    Interestingly enough, the report has disappeared from the IWWF web site. 404 error where it's linked.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • ForrestGumpForrestGump Posts: 6,137
    edited December 2019
    360 scores thrown out because of boat path??? WTF.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • ForrestGumpForrestGump Posts: 6,137
    I just told JD that he needed to ask for his driver's rating back.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

    sunperch
  • HortonHorton Posts: 29,738 Administrator

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  • JackQJackQ Posts: 379 Open or Level 9 Skier
    Although it can be quite difficult to pull a strong skier at 38, 41 within the allowable deviation. However, I believe that when the dust settles, this won’t be a case(s)that cumulative deviation exceeds the max by 1cm, etc, where a record would be denied, But more agreedous and deliberate.
  • ForrestGumpForrestGump Posts: 6,137
    The link didn't work from their main page when I tried it.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • ricorico Posts: 296 Crazy Baller
    I HATE FRENCH PEOPLE... :-)


    We need to be careful with stats and how to interpret them. One example is when told the stats that people who eat breakfast are more likely to be fit and healthy than people who don't. The real questions is: Are they fit and healthy because they eat breakfast or is it that people who take the time to eat breakfast usually have a better life balance and maybe a bigger income, a smaller commute to work....

    Looking at the world ranking list and the 5 best scores for each athlete (men or women) into 41 off / 10.25m, 56% of those scores were in the USA or just short of 58% in North America, 35% in Europe, 5% in Asia and .5% in South America.

    For Europe, France hosted 30% of those scores. You could argue that we are more likely to find issues with video or boat path because of the number of tournaments held with high level athletes.

    Having said that, I do think that there is a real issue due to the lack of verification by the international federation and people relaxed a bit too much. This is a good wake up call to remind officials that the rule book is meant to be followed.

    I attend class c tournaments where the chief boat driver is constantly watching the boat path video, and I saw a driver being replaced after a few bad passes in the course.

    If that is not the level those L, R tournaments are held, they have no business being L,R and those sites should run C.

    Now, the questions whether those questionable boat path happened due to human error or on purpose, I believe or would like to believe the majority were human error.

    The truth is that if skiers, viewers, officials, governing bodies and anyone who love this sport demand that international tournaments are held at the level they deserve, the sport will be in a better place and those questionable scores will hopefully be a thing of the past...

    FYI, a quick reminder of the R rule:


    16.10: Record Forms and Criteria (2018)
    Specifications of equipment, courses and measuring devices shall be set by the Official IWWF Record Forms, which must be completed and certified by the Confederation Tournament Council Chairman, by the Chief Judge and other required officials.
    These record forms shall require that for a trick or slalom record, the performance must be video recorded videotaped.
    a) Slalom. Boat video, Gate video, and end-course video will be per the rules requirements. The event judges will examine the video for compliance to the Rules. The videos will be sent with the record forms to the chairman of the IWWF Tournament Council. The video will be examined to verify that the path is within the following deviation specifications:
    Maximum deviation of the boat at the guide buoys - 20 cm toward the buoy.
    Total cumulative deviation allowed based on score is as follows:

    Score Cumulative Deviation
    0.25 - 1.00 20 cm
    1.25 - 2.00 28 cm
    2.25 - 3.00 35 cm
    3.25 - 4.00 40 cm
    4.25 - 5.00 45 cm
    5.25 - 6.00 49 cm
    Eric Francois - Studio City, CA - Denali C-75 - Reflex
    Bruce_Butterfield9400
  • 94009400 Posts: 644 Crazy Baller
    With the record tolerance for slalom as noted above, what gets a score downgraded? I'm curious about the threshold for what's considered unacceptable (ability wise) and at what point is it considered "helping the skier" (ability wise).
  • 94009400 Posts: 644 Crazy Baller
    Thinking out loud here, why don't we have a rating system for drivers? For example, a panel of trusted slalom officials in the US who might consist of drivers (and it doesn't have to be drivers) such as Chad Scott, Chris Eller, etc., who could rate (but not necessarily RANKING) the drivers much like our skier rating Level 1 through Level 10, being based on things like minimum deviation at certain line lengths.

    Somewhere along the way, the system is kind of broken. There are drivers who think they're role is to help the skier (I personally think that has a place, but somewhere there has to be a cut off). I'm sure I'm part of the problem here, but I have helped skiers run a -28 for the first time in a tournament.

    One of the main reasons I didn't maintain any driver rating is the maintenance and the promotion system for drivers. I don't go a lot of tournaments but almost every day I drive, I get to drive -38, -39, -41 and sometimes -43. My problem is that if I'm driving -15 through whatever at 21mph to whatever, my attention span is very short after a few skiers whereas if I'm driving-32 to -41, I focus much better most of the time. I don't see how drivers can stay in that seat for hours at a time, hats off to them that can.


  • santangelosantangelo Posts: 190 Solid Baller
    For the cases of 'No Video' does this imply that when the governing body requested the video for review, the the tech controller couldn't produce it? If so, it sounds like the governing body should be looking into the role the TC played in these cases.
    jayski
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,772 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    @9400 , you probably know this, but we already have a system for rating drivers – Assistant, Regular and Senior. The regular and senior tests require evaluation of boat path and pulling skiers beyond a certain line length (I forget the exact requirements). If you want to differentiate among the best drivers by any given panel, it would get political very fast. The buddies of those on the panel would get the highest rating, but someone on the other side of the country, or someone the panel doesn’t like for whatever reason would get put at the bottom of the list.

    In reality, the skiers are the best judges of how good the driver are and usually aren’t shy about letting tournament organizers know their opinions, even if it falls on deaf ears.

    This is not to say there isn’t room for improvement. I would like see periodic re-testing for senior drivers. I’ve seen boat path of senior drivers who got their ratings before the video requirements who were running over boat guides pulling women at 22 off.
    I'm Ancient. WTH do I know?
    9400HortonMattPjayski
  • 94009400 Posts: 644 Crazy Baller
    @Bruce_Butterfield , I guess the point I was trying to make is that I'm not a fan of the current system. Wasn't looking to rank the drivers, it was more of an incentive to have the drivers strive to be centered and straight. If every driver was a "Level 10 driver", I think that would be great. I realize that the skiers have a voice to tournament organizers, but skiers also like drivers that give them good scores. There are more than a few drivers out there who can manipulate a boat path to the benefit of a skier. I like your idea about retesting senior drivers but I think more review of path during tournaments might reel it in a little quicker.
    Bruce_Butterfield
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 3,045 Mega Baller
    I would be interested in seeing the end course video that are archived for these scores.
    It is understandable to remove scores from the world rankings list for non compliance of tournament required video.
    I guess my contention is that this is what you get when we have a performance ideology rather then a true competition ideology in this sport.
    We also have a trend of people / officials and drivers in this sport who have taken on the practice believing they are better then others when in reality they are not.
    Over the years I have seen these officials around the globe elevate them selves to the point that they are dictating unrealistic rule definition and or policy or even slanting for personal gains.


    Good luck every one in 2020!
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


  • skier2788skier2788 Posts: 793 Crazy Baller
    I sincerely hope that the athletes and sponsors are not discouraged and continue to support the European tour. At the end of the day the goal is to have world class athletes perform their skill in front of a crowd.

    It does pain me to think that people are trying to influence scores. I can understand setting up a site to the best that it can be. To me the best it can be should be as close to perfect in all aspects... Course survey and boat path.

    Can't imagine having a -41 pulled. That has to suck. Only consolation was it wasn't a world record. 😅
    Travis Torley
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 3,045 Mega Baller
    @Bruce_Butterfield
    We do have a pretty good system in our orgainzation for drivers as we are subject to submitting end course video to the drivers committee each year. And I can tell you also that the committee randomly pulls video from across the organization for spot analysis. Also many of our techs send in tournament video anyway. So trust me there are a number of officials checking it out.
    Drivers don't get invited to the high end level events just because they asked to be there , well 3xcept for nationals.
    Skiers enter elite and rankings REL tournaments knowing that they will get a dedicated sr level driver and these drivers are invited by the LOC.

    Would still like some disclosure and access to these end course videos as these skiers affected are only going off of someone else's word in a official capacity that says so without recourse.

    And what's up with this R&L rankings list head tax??
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


    Bruce_Butterfield
  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 4,461 Mega Baller
    @9400 want to incentivize? Maybe with some of the forthcoming apps instead of viewing it as simple tolerance you could have a $ pot for the drivers to win based on their path.
  • raynrayn Posts: 403 Solid Baller
    There are good drivers and sr. drivers one does not imply the other.

    @Bruce_Butterfield noted that maybe another way to rate drivers is some skier feedback after the Tournament via a semi anonymous survey monkey. I know that might get political but might give another point of input to our drivers. With that said I think we a lot of very good drivers in the northeast. (Thanks in advance guys and gals)
    Ray Newmark -
  • HortonHorton Posts: 29,738 Administrator
    @Jody_Seal yea and I would like to see the end course video for Jamie Beauchesne's world record

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  • rogerwrogerw Posts: 19 Baller
    I would never have the foggiest idea if my driver was not running a good path etc. Id always blame my lack of ability
    RichardDoane
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