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Do longer skis turn slower than shorter skis? Where's the data?

thagerthager Posts: 5,138 Mega Baller
This has always been accepted as fact but where's the proof?
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Comments

  • SpineofgooSpineofgoo Posts: 117 Baller
    SUV vs tractor trailer. Which one turns faster?
    MDB1056
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,189 Administrator
    wheel base...

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  • SpineofgooSpineofgoo Posts: 117 Baller
    Apples vs oranges?
    drewski32
  • thagerthager Posts: 5,138 Mega Baller
    I doubt very much that a person uses the full length of a ski to turn so I think the wheelbase argument is B.S. Some of my best skis were longer than accepted for my weight and turned better than the same model shorter ski. Rocker, shovel, surface area, flex, bevel etc. have a bigger effect on on turn radius. Not talking common accepted sense here. Where's the proof?
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  • SpineofgooSpineofgoo Posts: 117 Baller
    @thager,why then are the Adams going 65 across the board?
  • thagerthager Posts: 5,138 Mega Baller
    @JackQ I agree, but I know so many skiers that will not even try a longer ski and that is always the response. It turns quicker. I have always been on a 66" etc.
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  • thagerthager Posts: 5,138 Mega Baller
    @Spineofgoo Money. Efficiency. Cost.
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    BG1
  • skialexskialex Posts: 1,165 Crazy Baller
    edited December 2019
    I ride longer than suggested by the manufacturer. I’m in the camp “ride the longer ski you can turn”
    Andreballsohardozski
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,876 Mega Baller
    edited December 2019
    I think we have to be surprisingly careful in defining "easy to turn." In slalom, we hope to accomplish several things in the turn. One is to rotate the ski (what the Denali folks call Yaw and I like to call around-Z). I claim the basic physics requires that a shorter ski is better at that task.

    But another task is to carve a relatively tight radius, and yet a third task is to change the direction of our velocity so that we can head the other way. For these critical tasks, it's a lot more ambiguous what role length plays. Or, more specifically, within a "reasonable" range of lengths, other characteristics might dominate the effects of length.

    So I also believe that skier style makes a big difference. I personally have never had any success with skis on the long end. I just don't understand how to take advantage of the things a longer ski can do better.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    ballsohardbishop8950
  • SpineofgooSpineofgoo Posts: 117 Baller
    Shorter skis seem to stall in the turns on me. I'm 6' 190.longer skis seem to generate more speed.
    TacoMan
  • skialexskialex Posts: 1,165 Crazy Baller
    Cross course speed and carrying speed through the turn are good things for me. Stop and go skis require more physical strength which doesn’t suit my style (I think).
  • DanEDanE Posts: 928 Crazy Baller
    edited December 2019
    So how is ski lenght most accurately defined? Total lenght or front boot location? Front boot location to rear end of fin?
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,189 Administrator
    Ok @thager I guess you want real answers. Well I do not think there is necessarily an easy or short answer. Here is a first pass....

    To start with, The idea of a longer ski is a misnomer. Longer skis are generally proportionally wider. In the case of D3, Connelly and Radar I believe that the skis are exactly proportional. If a 67 is one inch longer than a 66 it is also roughly .010 wider at your front toes (depending on the ski shape). That width means that if everything else is the same the wider ski will make more speed and slow down more slowly. All of this certainly impacts turn radius.

    Ok so take width out of the equation: A slalom turn is a controlled slide. The tail of the ski slides wide the path of the skier. Call if smear or oversteer or yaw or whatever. The point is that the skier is exerting pressure to slide the tail of the ski and/or the front of the ski is pulling to the inside which also puts pressure on the tail to slide outward. The greater the distance there is between the skiers feet and the fin the less leverage is put on the tail to slide. This can be demonstrated by moving bindings - a ski that is too loose at apex will slide less with bindings slightly forward.

    The trick is to find the right size ski for your skiing. Undersized skis suck as bad as oversize skis. Some skiers are going to not match up with the factory recommendations because we do not all ski exactly the same.

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  • thagerthager Posts: 5,138 Mega Baller
    edited December 2019
    @Horton Agreed. It's a long winter! With all the tuning nuances available now I am thinking bigger sizes are not such a big problem anymore. Big ski won't slow down? Put an s-wing on it, etc.
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  • DirtDirt Posts: 1,670 Open or Level 9 Skier
    It depends more on the total surface area than the length.
    I learned everything I know not to do from Horton
    thagermmosley899Horton
  • Stevie BoyStevie Boy Posts: 2,188 ★★★★Quad Panda Award Recipient ★★★★
    These are just my thoughts, right or wrong, at 5ft 6ins short, I have done my best skiing on a 66 inch ski, because of my weight, I now ski on a 67inch and I have recently started to ski really well on it.
    But technology has made it possible for longer skis to turn much better than in the past, I have a ski buddy that skis on a 64 that should be skiing on a 66/67, his total take on the whole thing is that regardless of ski and ski setup if you continue to ski on it, your body/mind will adapt and you will ski on
    I do think that unless you are in the very advanced level, changing your ski and setup on a regular basis is not going to help you, more time on the water with what you have will.

    How well you turn a ski could be Height/Length related going back years ago, ski selection was generally based on your height, but obviously skis have changed a great deal since then.

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  • JordanJordan Posts: 1,251 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Curious about the effect of flex. I would think if we were to compare two skis that were exactly the same except for flex that the softer ski would turn better. In other words, if the ski bent into an arc during the turn, it would seem to help the turn.
    Or would it?
    If the turn was just a carving action then the answer would be yes, but we know that the tail needs to slide more or less depending on the skier.
    For example, when I watch Nate turn his onside, he seems to make the tail slide rather abruptly arriving at hook up very quickly. We know that he uses a 67 inch ski and likes a long/shallow setup. It seems that he achieves that Z type turn overcoming any disadvantage from the longer ski, then immediately receiving the advantage of a longer ski at hook up to moving across the wake.
    I have always thought that the women ski on proportionately longer skis for their weight. I have no data but they are often on 66 inch skis at 120, 130 pounds or so...
    I wonder just how much the pro skiers who have factory support, experiment with different layups of the same ski before they settle on their choice?

    Gotta love winter!
  • DWDW Posts: 2,296 Mega Baller
    @thager - to the way you wrote the question, are you questioning the actual turn velocity or what we are all 'guessing' the turn radius?
    If the latter, I would think the more key parameter would be distance from fin Cp to Binding Cp and that parameter having an effect on turn radius (along with a lot of other factors as noted in the thread). Or maybe even more key, distance from fin Cp to forward water breaking point (lets see how we will all measure that one:-)
  • JASJAS Posts: 305 Crazy Baller
    No proof, Denali, it’s in the Science it seems.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,189 Administrator
    @dw that is what I said

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  • thagerthager Posts: 5,138 Mega Baller
    Do we really need a crazy fast turn? Probably talking milliseconds here. How well a skier uses extension and then quick compression from their core to hip initiating the turn has a big effect on how fast the ski turns. Trying to turn a ski on a loose rope will be slower and inconsistent as well. In the old days when you couldn't tune or move binding adjust wings, etc. it made sense to me. Smaller was better, but now?
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  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,876 Mega Baller
    @eleeski I kind of disagree with you because I do think sliding is important, but overall I like your comments and I decided it was more "Like" than "Disagree."
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    jimskiballsohard
  • Stevie BoyStevie Boy Posts: 2,188 ★★★★Quad Panda Award Recipient ★★★★
    edited December 2019
    When the ski slides are you losing time, surely you must lose momentum, a race car driver does not always take the shortest route, same with snow skiing the more you can keep the skis in contact with the snow the quicker you are ?

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    eleeski
  • thagerthager Posts: 5,138 Mega Baller
    edited December 2019
    @Stevie Boy Warren Witherall wrote a great article on that. Wonder if I can find it. Used to be included in the AWSA membership packet way way way back!
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  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,189 Administrator
    @Stevie Boy a slalom ski is in a constant state of slide.

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  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,189 Administrator
    @eleeski I can't give you more Pandas but no

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  • SpineofgooSpineofgoo Posts: 117 Baller
    @Stevie Boy watch a sprint car race,con state of slide. Faster than a raped ape!
  • SpineofgooSpineofgoo Posts: 117 Baller
    Constant
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