Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

______________
12" White Stickers
______________
BallOfSpray $5 Donation
______________
BallOfSpray $10 Donation

What is the purpose of Class L and R events?

HortonHorton Posts: 28,773 Administrator
This is a semi-rhetorical question but seriously what is the point of record tournaments?
Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

Connelly ★ Basta ★ DBSkis ★ Denali ★ Goode ★ Hobe Lake ★ MasterCraft

Masterline ★ McClintock's ★ Performance Ski and Surf ★ Reflex ★ Radar 

Stella Blue ★ Stokes ★ World WaterSki League

 

«1

Comments

  • JeffSurdejJeffSurdej Posts: 624 USAWS Official
    @Horton world rankings is the most apparent reason, its the only way to qualify for international events
    AWSA President
    Hortonjayski
  • MattPMattP Posts: 6,094 Mega Baller
    edited February 6
    Too many people use the term record to mean both and they are different. Only about 10 skiers in the world need a R to be able to set a world record. L for the rest who want world ranking.
    jetpilotg4bishop8950
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,773 Administrator
    So you guys are saying that the only reason to go to an L over a C is for international ranking?
    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Connelly ★ Basta ★ DBSkis ★ Denali ★ Goode ★ Hobe Lake ★ MasterCraft

    Masterline ★ McClintock's ★ Performance Ski and Surf ★ Reflex ★ Radar 

    Stella Blue ★ Stokes ★ World WaterSki League

     

  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 2,901 Mega Baller
    edited February 6
    @Horton
    Yes ! What are you thinking! And soon pay an extra fee to do so..
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


  • MattPMattP Posts: 6,094 Mega Baller
    edited February 6
    @Horton and the hope of "a higher standard" driving and judging, but we all know that ratings do not always come with skill. I could care less about being on the world ranking list. The video gates, number of higher rated judges, surveyed course should make those scores worth more than a C. Though I go to plenty of C tournaments that are run to an L standard.

    @Jody_Seal is right, but at least they pushed that out a year.
    bishop8950
  • RichardDoaneRichardDoane Posts: 4,339 Mega Baller
    Put a Sr. Judge in the boat, and Sr. and a Reg. Judge on each tower and you don’t need gate cameras. Boat path video and you’re good for an L. @MattP is right, L scores should get a % increase. That would be more PC than discounting C scores.
    BallOfSpray Pacific Northwest Vice President of Event Management, aka "Zappy"
    MattP
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,380 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited February 6
    I think it's important for a score to remain 'the score'. In other words, penalty or bonus for tournament class, number of scores, etc. I would prefer to see scores at higher class tournament weighted differently by how long they 'live' on the ranking lists. For example, a class L/R score remains part of your average for 18 months, class E scores remain on the list (AWSA list) for 12 months, class C for 8 months, etc. Adjust the timing as needed but that gives relative weight to the class of tournament and allows the calculation to drop the penalty for fewer than 3 scores. Using the same concept, that would potentially allow scores like class F score and even practice scores to legitimately be used to generate a more realistic ranking average. Let class F/practice scores only live for 3 months and restrict how many can be used to generate the average (lets say no more than 1-3 scores).

    There are a few challenges to the current ranking list. As more league type events which
    may have a handicap included, it's very difficult to get an accurate handicap (or target best score) from the ranking list. Using just the score posted on the list can have a 5 or 10% penalty added to the score. So a skier with a ranking score of 90-95 buoys and only a single score or two has 'real' scores of closer to 100 buoys or a pass or two higher than the ranking score. So you have to look at all the scores posted to get something more accurate.

    Also, even the skier that posts the most tournament scores rarely has more than 30 scores posted in a years time. And the vast majority of those are typically clustered near the high end of the scores. Increasing the population of scores used to generate their 'average'/likely best score increases the potential accuracy and can help limit the chance of sandbagging.

    Varying the time different 'classes' of scores stay on the ranking list also add a dynamic to the ranking list that would bring back a little mystery as to who is REALLY the best skier on the starting dock. While seeding values would still have legitimacy you'd have to show up at the dock and ski competitive tournaments like the Regionals or Nationals instead of assuming based on where you are on the ranking list. Back in the EP rating days, you literally had no way to know where everyone was ranked until all the rated skiers showed up at Nationals.

    Anyway, I think weighting different class scores by how long they are included in your average would be an interesting way to add some life to a pretty static list. And it would generate some 'value' of class E/L/R tournaments that doesn't exist today.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
    AWSA Southern Region EVP
    jayskiski6jonesMattPRichardDoane
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,773 Administrator
    edited February 7
    Is this Class L driving?


    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Connelly ★ Basta ★ DBSkis ★ Denali ★ Goode ★ Hobe Lake ★ MasterCraft

    Masterline ★ McClintock's ★ Performance Ski and Surf ★ Reflex ★ Radar 

    Stella Blue ★ Stokes ★ World WaterSki League

     

    Zman
  • kckc Posts: 192 Solid Baller
    @Horton Sad and disappointing for sure! I’d like to believe that occurs LESS in L events than C, maybe that’s naïve of me.
  • JackQJackQ Posts: 321 Crazy Baller
    Often in the past I didn’t really concern my self about international rankings, but went to records as the drivers generally were more experienced and more skilled. I said generally, some drivers drove in both records and Cs. And sometimes the driver in a R should not be have been allowed in a C or any other tournament.

    My personal pet peeve is a driver that the only time they pull a skier in a year is the couple of tournaments they attend! To quote Phil Adams circa 1995,”if I am not driving a skier to 25 and 38 every week, I have no business driving in a tournament!”
    Bruce_Butterfieldsantangelo
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,773 Administrator
    edited February 25
    I pulled this thread down about 2 weeks ago at the request of a AWSA official. I was told the event where the above boat path video was shot was under investigation. I was also told that this thread and the video was making it harder for the AWSA officials to do their job. I believe all that to be true.

    Yesterday I got a bit of an ass chewing from a prominent person in the sport. One of the things said was that I was personally inconstant about how I handle controversial subjects in the sport. I gave this a lot of thought, took it very seriously and the accusation has some merit. In my defense inconsistencies are the result of not having a standing policy. After 12 years of running this site I have policies that cover a number of subjects and now I will have to cook one for this sort of issue. The policy going forward is roughly - "If I see Bull$hit that impacts the veracity of the sport the I am going to publish it."

    The point of this thread and other like it is to expose various actions that are detrimental to the sport. It is not to be decisive or to create controversy or drive web traffic. The goal is always the integrity of the sport.



    So for those of you not following along.... the videos above were shot at a Class R event. Scores from that event are on the World Standings List as well as the AWSA National Standings List.
    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Connelly ★ Basta ★ DBSkis ★ Denali ★ Goode ★ Hobe Lake ★ MasterCraft

    Masterline ★ McClintock's ★ Performance Ski and Surf ★ Reflex ★ Radar 

    Stella Blue ★ Stokes ★ World WaterSki League

     

    adamhcaldwellRAWSkiZman
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,773 Administrator
    So back to the original topic - Class L and R events are to be administrated in a manner that is beyond reproach. These events are the highest standard we have in the sport.

    The driving in the above video looks like an attempt to cheat the standings lists.
    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Connelly ★ Basta ★ DBSkis ★ Denali ★ Goode ★ Hobe Lake ★ MasterCraft

    Masterline ★ McClintock's ★ Performance Ski and Surf ★ Reflex ★ Radar 

    Stella Blue ★ Stokes ★ World WaterSki League

     

    Bruce_Butterfieldrandy menyadamhcaldwell
  • kurtkurt Posts: 102 Baller
    @klindy , I like the thought of weighting the L scores to stay on longer than the 12 months .
    However if you lower the C scores to a 8 month time frame , for us in the north we will have zero incentive to participate in any tournament.
    I host 4-5 tournaments at my lake a year and have ZERO desire to change those to an L just so my score can stay on awsa ranking longer. You will experience a net loss of participation in tournaments.
    I host the tournaments as a way to 1: get a score , 2: hang out with my buddies and not necessarily in that order.
    You are right in the average not necessarily reflecting the true skiers ability, I ski 10-12 tournaments a year and only the top 10% of those scores are in my average.

    As far as the F scores go my example is last year I had guy's over to ski the night before a tournament. I skied pretty good, the next day same conditions , same two guy's in the boat ( both seniors) I missed my opener on my own site uugh. (probably mind wander thinking if I had enough gas/food/porta jons/is my wife mad all these people are over /etc. or something else for the event)

    billy's puddle swerving around the frogs
    MISkierklindyMattPrandy meny
  • jcampjcamp Posts: 837 Mega Baller
    L/R scores are already given more weight than C class scores. Two L/R scores can be used for your average without a penalty while you need 3 class C scores. This increases scores for those who ski L/Rs because a third, most often times lower score is then not considered.

    This might not be perfect, but I prefer it over a system that will make things more confusing. And let's face it, not all regions (or skiers' budgets for that matter) have the same access to L/Rs that others do.


    randy menyZman
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,327 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    I flat out missed a 6 ball in a "R" with video etc and they counted it. They didn't use the standard towers usually used at skiwatch but set up the "R" one's. I've been in the standard towers many times and there's no way a judge up there gives me that 6 ball. I pulled to the side and threw the rope it was so obvious to me.

    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • JackQJackQ Posts: 321 Crazy Baller
    Horton, I just reviewed your attached video's, Yikes. Looks like generally bad driving, wrong siding the skier as much helping the skier, in an poorly executed attempt to help the skier. I think skier would have better performance if the boat just stayed in the middle.
    randy menyRoger
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,773 Administrator
    @JackQ watch the first one again. The driver is way right at 1 ball and as soon as the skier hooks up he goes hard left. At two ball the boat is way left and then the skier hooks up the the boat suddenly goes hard right. Same pattern for the rest of the pass. That score was a 5 @ 41 and impacts the world standings list.
    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Connelly ★ Basta ★ DBSkis ★ Denali ★ Goode ★ Hobe Lake ★ MasterCraft

    Masterline ★ McClintock's ★ Performance Ski and Surf ★ Reflex ★ Radar 

    Stella Blue ★ Stokes ★ World WaterSki League

     

    matthewbrown
  • matthewbrownmatthewbrown Posts: 462 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @Horton in a class L or R you would run [email protected] behind me, in a class C you would run [email protected] behind me. There should only be one class of tournament where the integrity of the sport is always kept in tact, with the exception of a class F tournament where beer is required and swimsuit tops are not.
    ski6jonesBruce_Butterfieldjetpilotg4lakeho26gsm_peterjayski
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,381 Mega Baller
    I have said this and will say it again. One of the biggest factors driving the need for L scores are juniors. Juniors want to qualify for Jr Masters and Can/Am and Jr teams. Today only E/L scores count for these events. So the parents and the kids drive the need. Since its almost the same trouble to do E as to do L no need to mess with E and such no one does.

    If these events allowed C to count it would make everyones life easier.
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
    Bruce_Butterfieldklindy
  • JackQJackQ Posts: 321 Crazy Baller
    edited February 25
    Horton, I agree but on some of the subsequent videos, there appear to be some poor executed timing, on attempts to move to next side. On thing that is not in doubt, it was purposeful.
    misp
  • Chad_ScottChad_Scott Posts: 501 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @Jody_Seal perfect solution
    Hortonjetpilotg4adamhcaldwell
  • HortonHorton Posts: 28,773 Administrator
    @Chad_Scott @Jody_Seal

    I 100% agree. Downgrading the whole event is the solution. If they cherry pick out the worst passes and allow the rest it will only impact a few skiers and will basically go unnoticed. Scores from this event impact national and international standings lists.

    The difference between Class C and Class R is effectively the quality of officials and overall process/scrutiny. At an L or R event we should expect drivers with the skill and experience to give a good ride and stay in the middle.

    At every event the drivers are supposed to TRY to keep the pylon down the center. We all know that sometimes drivers get out of sync or get pulled over - that happens. We should have a ton on understanding for honest mistakes and zero tolerance for cheating. At a Class C there is room for drivers to learn. The videos above especially the first 2 look like blatant cheating to me.
    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Connelly ★ Basta ★ DBSkis ★ Denali ★ Goode ★ Hobe Lake ★ MasterCraft

    Masterline ★ McClintock's ★ Performance Ski and Surf ★ Reflex ★ Radar 

    Stella Blue ★ Stokes ★ World WaterSki League

     

  • GloersenGloersen Posts: 984 Crazy Baller
    edited February 26
    .
  • bigtex2011bigtex2011 Posts: 499 Crazy Baller
    What region ids this from?
  • MISkierMISkier Posts: 2,785 Mega Baller
    @bigtex2011, the date in the video is 11/10/2019, which would likely place it in the South. A quick check of tournament scores in USA Water Ski for that weekend should narrow it down.
    The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears.
  • LLUSALLUSA Posts: 283 Crazy Baller
    This will continue to go on until the AWSA board as a whole stands up to this, I for one was very vocal about this tournament and the driving at the winter meeting. Pulling the scores is fine but until you finally make an example out of someone (pull their drivers rating for a year) it will continue to go on. If we're going to allow this then the season is open
    LLUSA, Sr Driver, AWSA Board of Directors, Towboat Committee,Lake Owner
    MattPBruce_Butterfieldski6jonesBroussard
Sign In or Register to comment.