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Class R/E/L vs Class C

There was a topic a few days back that had some good ideas then some inflammatory video. The post / topic was removed, but I thought there was a good idea posted that deserves repeating.

I agree with the idea of letting Class E/L/R scores last 24 months on the ranking list but Class C scores expiring after 12 months. That increases the weight of the stricter tournaments without discounting the Class C scores. Nothing controversial, but a solid idea from the person who suggested it.
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  • EricKelleyEricKelley Posts: 300 Crazy Baller
    The sport needs class C tournaments to keep its base with easy access to tournaments. It also needs higher end skiers to go to these tournaments because they are typically judges, drivers, etc....
    If class C scores would not count, I would only be able to compete in my tournaments in my state.
    In Kentucky our class C's have always been legit.
    The problem that needs to be solved is the officials who are not running things right. Let's correct this.
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,664 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @brettmainer that was me. I think the class ELR scores might need to be something less than 24 months but you have the general idea. Scores with a half-life if less than a year could be used for class F and even practice scores. The goal is to make the ranking list more dynamic and add more scores.

    With a more dynamic ranking list, it adds a level of uncertainty as to who actually is ranked where on the list since scores will be added and fall off at different frequencies. The hope is more people show up at the championship tournaments to see where they rank. I think this adds value to the ranking list and, in turn, to AWSA.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Chairman of the Board
    AWSA Southern Region EVP
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,664 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @EricKelley i definitely think class C scores should count. The thought is tournaments with a higher class should live on the ranking list longer than class C - maybe 16, 18 or 20 months. Scores from a lower class (class F) might be on the list for only 6 months. Practice scores would be on the list for 3 months.

    Of course things can vary but the concept is to add value to the scores from different class events but not change the actual score themselves. Applying a penalty to the average of a skier who didn’t ski enough lowers the average to slide them down the list but then the score shown is pretty much meaningless for events like handicaps or team events. Sure you can go get all the skiers scores and do your own math but I’m trying to simplify things.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Chairman of the Board
    AWSA Southern Region EVP
  • KelvinKelvin Posts: 1,283 Mega Baller
    Golf has used self reported non-officiated scores to establish official handicaps for years. Why can’t we do the same thing in water skiing with practice scores run under tournament rules?
    Kelvin Kelm, Lakes of Katy, Katy Texas
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,485 Mega Baller
    @Kelvin @klindy we need to encoruage more tournament skiing. Practice doesnt count.

    To that point we need more class C and less L, all the L requiremnets make tournaments much harder ro run and more expensive to minimal gain.
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
  • JackQJackQ Posts: 422 Open or Level 9 Skier
    In many regions it is hard to put together a L, not having C scores count is ridiculous even more so to have practice scores count. Brett’s idea of L counting for two years, isn’t bad.

    I have been to and aware of tournaments in the past that were more than questionable, where a majority of skiers were setting PBs. I knew my score was bogus and never went back, the key perpetrators were only fooling them selves as soon as they went to a L or Regionals their scores were 1-2 passes off.
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,664 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @disland @Bruce_Butterfield The goal is to increase the scores used on the ranking list. Dave is right we need to encourage more tournament participation. To do that we need to have a reason to join AWSA and having a place to post a score (tournament or otherwise) is a place to start. As I said, varying the half-life of the score will effectively weight the score based on the event it was posted. Doing it this way, anyone who posts only practice scores or reports higher (or lower) than legitimate scores will be flushed out if and when they show up at a tournament.

    Practice scores can be filtered out for things like Nationals/Regionals seeding or annual ranking list champion, etc. If a skier only posts practice scores, they have far less relevance than someone who posts a mix of tournament and practice scores. Varying the half-life of a score also increases the value of a class E (or L/R) tournament too. My thought is to keep class C tournaments as a baseline score (value of 1) and make scores 'above' and 'below' a class C event relative. It's even possible to make practices scores acceptable if they've been confirmed but an official or something similar. Or make them valid only if they are x% or less above any posted tournament score. Point is there's a way to put some legitimacy into the system to make it work.

    As @Kelvin said, golf has done this for years.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Chairman of the Board
    AWSA Southern Region EVP
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,664 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @JackQ Where did you see anyone saying that class C scores shouldn't count? And as I said above, the original idea was to have a class L score count for just less than 2 years so it can be used as a qualifier for one annual tournament (Regionals, Nationals, etc) but not two. So the half-life of a class L could be 20 months even 22 months but I would not recommend 24 months.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Chairman of the Board
    AWSA Southern Region EVP
  • mmosley899mmosley899 Posts: 713 Water Ski Industry Professional
    Practice scores don’t really work even if you have a rated official because in a lot of cases you cannot verify the course, or boat speed, the boat path maybe... tournament conditions are found at tournaments.
    Mike's Overall Binding
    Sweet Home Alabama Skiing
    Senior Judge, Senior Driver, Tech Controller
  • teammalibuteammalibu Posts: 1,088 Mega Baller
    As long as we all get a medal!
    Mike Erb Cedar Ridge Canton Miss.
    Horton is my hero
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,928 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    @klindy you are heading for the double panda:)

    You said we need more tournament participation (I agree), but want practice scores to count? That seems self defeating - why go to a tournament if practice scores "count"?

    I think your half-life idea for L/R vs C is good and valid. Practice scores, not so much.

    And yes, L is way overkill for the majority of skiers.
    I'm Ancient. WTH do I know?
  • kckc Posts: 268 Crazy Baller
    What @Chad_Scott said...
  • sunperchsunperch Posts: 278 Crazy Baller
    edited February 2020
    I like the idea of practice scores counting......please put me down for [email protected], pay no attention to the fact that it is Feb. in Kansas with a forecast low of 7 degrees tonight. I don't want to go crazy and accidentally bump myself into Level 10.
  • unksskisunksskis Posts: 579 Crazy Baller
    @klindy I'm following along with you with an open mind. The current system(and people it seems) likely can't fairly incorporate practice scores, but it is likely something to look at creating a feeder type ranking system that can support having practice scores as Golf has done, and preserve the value of the current ranking system. If it gives people a reason to join USA-WS that may be beneficial enough, since that seems to continue to be a major organizational goal and people say there's no value in being a member outside of skiing tournaments.
  • The_MSThe_MS Posts: 6,234 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    I just lost my SR slalom judge rating from lack of participation the past couple years due to health and injury issues. I was down graded to Regular.
    I can still judge in an R event but only with other SR judges on the towers.
    Shut up and ski
  • JackQJackQ Posts: 422 Open or Level 9 Skier
    Having practice scores, really. How may attempts do I get, can I have head wind only? Just count my scores as Chad’s score - 4 buoys.
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 3,354 Mega Baller
    Enormoose trophy! Everybody wins!
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.

  • thagerthager Posts: 5,259 Mega Baller
    Right on BullWinkle!
    Stir vigorously then leave!
  • MattPMattP Posts: 6,277 Mega Baller
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,664 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @unksskis You have the idea. It would be trivial to be able to toggle any class of scores on or off on the ranking list depending on the purpose.

    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Chairman of the Board
    AWSA Southern Region EVP
  • unksskisunksskis Posts: 579 Crazy Baller
    Amazing stuff @JeffSurdej ! Could this also apply to Jump as well for those with splash eye and the proper crew? Any reason why not?
  • JeffSurdejJeffSurdej Posts: 702 USAWS Official
    @unksskis good question, for the performance sign off you can do jump, for video submission I'm just trying to think how you video, we need video of the jump, boat speed and times, but then also video of the capture of the jump. Any thoughts?
    AWSA President
  • unksskisunksskis Posts: 579 Crazy Baller
    edited February 2020
    Good points, I guess it would have to be video of the capture of the jump along with video from boat
  • jayskijayski Posts: 1,030 Mega Baller
    @klindy I love it!

    Let's start a world online ski league and I will hold the World Championships at Cottonwood this September!

    Skiers can send their videos in and we will keep an online ranking list!
    Practice scores can be 50%, 'C' scores 80% and "L/R" scores 100% value or something like that

    Down to help make it happen!! Lets talk!
  • unksskisunksskis Posts: 579 Crazy Baller
    It's interesting as I was looking to incorporate something similar to this locally to help build Grass Roots and "club" skier participation. Would like to incorporate this into the initiative.
  • Mike GileMike Gile Posts: 386 Crazy Baller
    Probably brought up before, but why not do just like golf?

    Create a handicap through the governing body by reporting practice "tournament sets". No need for costly and time consuming video submission or review.

    This gets people to sign up for AWSA at one level or another - need to be a member to establish a handicap. It also fires up the competitive spirit, inspires improvement - anything measured will be focused on, and would, in my opinion, lead to more tournament participation.

    Handicap should not be related to ranking lists.
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