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What separates the men from the boys

ghutchghutch Posts: 169 Baller
What separates those skiers getting into and through 38 vs those stuck at 35? For the last couple of years I have run 35 more and more but still only maybe 10-20 % of the time. 32 is a pretty easy pass and I rarely miss it but 35 just isn't going down like I want it to. I will say I received a c-75 this winter and actually feel 35 is going to be more attainable this summer the few times I have ridden it over the winter actually running 3 @ 35 right out of the box on it and the pass once. Denali ROCKS!!! Thoughts?


  • skisprayskispray Posts: 237 Crazy Baller
    Athletic ability, money, and time on the water, especially as a child. There are exceptions to the latter. I don’t believe there are any exceptions to the first item. If people tell you they’re an exception they’re probably being modest. If there are any exceptions, then they have enough time and money to be getting excellent skiing and coaching opportunities consistently. This probably isn’t what you’re looking to hear but we all need a minimum of one of these things in order to move up.
  • The_MSThe_MS Posts: 6,156 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    Vision/Timing. What you see in front of you and how/when you react to what you see. If you can run 32 you can run 38
    Shut up and ski
  • SkirvindSkirvind Posts: 52 Baller
    @ghutch the answer is different for each skier. If you want a general answer since you can run it. I'd say quite upper body, and handle control during perturn are important. Post a video to get ideas that will directly relate to your skiing.
  • WishWish Posts: 8,269 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited February 2020
    Video would be great. Generally speaking though, a couple things.

    1. You can get your body outside the turn ball at 32 creating a certain visual. Not so much at 35 and 38. You have to visually be ok with just the ski rounding the ball and your visual (and the rest of you) being on the inside. Trying to get the same visual as 32 prob means you're pulling to the shore and well past CL to get "you" outside the buoy at short line. This causes all sorts of havoc. Critical at set up and for gates.
    2. Everyhing is happening faster at 35/38. You have to process things much quicker then 32.

    The c-75 will help greatly. Sounds like it already has 👍

    In short, MS is correct. If 32s are going as they should (check that on your videos) 35 and perhaps 38 is doable. And what you see in front of you, how and when you react is critical at short line...especially gates.

    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • JackQJackQ Posts: 412 Open or Level 9 Skier
    Body position, Body position! If you have good body position (Horton's stack) you can have a plethora of short comings.

    If you cant run at least mid 35, you need to work on your 32s, not to run them but to run them in proper position and with space at the buoys, not wide but space ahead of buoy.

    No, you don't have to start as a child, I never ran a course until 23 yrs old, and in three years time could run [email protected], but very rarely. I didn't find 35 a major barriers, running it consistently was a considerable barrier. For me 38 was the brick wall, where you need to graduate from algebra to geometry, its all about the angle.
  • NandoNando Posts: 584 Crazy Baller
    All of the above are correct but the first time I was ever in the boat with really top-level skiers- BLP and Geoff Carrington (nice name-dropping, eh?)- what impressed me was their intensity and focus. Until they skied, it was like being with my regular ski buddies, but once the switch was flipped, there was a very perceptible difference.
  • bishop8950bishop8950 Posts: 1,221 Open or Level 9 Skier
    Nice @ColeGiacopuzzi Agreed. I often coach “if the start and one ball isn’t awesome, don’t worry about the rest of the pass”. And as I start to go up the rope every spring, it’s the gate that needs tuned up to run the next pass. Gate only.

    Where I see people getting stuck at 35 is not focusing enough on how we swing side to side. Generally in a hurry to finish too soon, which kills you after 32.
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,306 Mega Baller
    If you look at video of you against the "men" and some top "girl" skiers, more than likely you are still on a pulling edge when they are already on a turn edge and getting the ski behind the handle sooner in the pre-turn phase.

    Pay real close attention to how they attack the wake and what they do right behind the boat into the transition into the turning phase. If you can duplicate that, you too can ski like a "man".
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,710 Mega Baller
    @horton agree on stack. Also if stacked well the boat will give you more energy and swing at shorter I don't pull as hard. I think of it more as blocking or resisting if I'm in good position out of the ball. You don't have to "amp up" for that shortline pass, you need to be technical.

    @bishop8950 agree. It's hard to describe in a way that makes sense for most. Finish too soon while too high on the boat and you are turning into momentary loose line which is a pass killer.

    At earlier lines, I'm taking the back off the ball. At 38 the ball slips under my hip right before I finish--I'm already in the motion as the ball goes by so the delay is subtle. Almost like a musician playng just off the beat for effect.

    There is also a little bit of travel inbound from my momentum alone, then the rope picks me up for the work to/thru the wake...whereas longer lines I have the rope tension right away out wide off the early finish at the ball.

    Great skiers may describe it differently, and may poke holes in what I've written but it got me to where 35 became a very seldom missed pass and 38 fell on 5 lakes and 3 different speed control systems including ZO (charley 3 please)in my best year.

    This despite my other obvious short-comings like labeling the two ball and the four ball, pulling too up the handle too soon, posing with my arm hanging out, and hanging on to everything always. A set of 6 deployable and releaseable parachutes would be great for me. At skiwatch one year @MS was announcing and I crushed my opener well over-skiing it. MS was like don't you worry folks, his two and four always look like that!
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • UCFskierUCFskier Posts: 93 Baller
    Hey @ghutch
    try changing the variables you can control. if your running 35 with good times (ie 34 mph) try slowing the boat down to 32.5 or 33 mph. gradually increase the speed after working on position without the scramble we all get at later line lengths. also very effective to use a small section of rope to give you a better feel of the speed into the bouy without the hurry up pressure.

    try these next season and Im sure you will be crushing deep 38 in no time!!
  • matthewbrownmatthewbrown Posts: 520 Open or Level 9 Skier
    Athletic ability and quality time on the water with a great coach.
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 3,299 Mega Baller
    Money! What else?? Got to pay to practice and it cost money to run 38 off and beyond!
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.

  • ghutchghutch Posts: 169 Baller
    All great suggestions guys. Thanks so much for your answers. I will definitely give these suggestions a shot. I was really wondering what has gotten you through that barrier and also if thats where most everyone experiences that "hump" of running shortline. What about 38? I have turned 4 ball before and it felt like a perfect unison of being in time with the boat and really easy. Excitement got the best of me sadly.
  • scokescoke Posts: 712 Crazy Baller

    Your arms are bent across the boat.
    Your shoulders are tilted across the boat.
    Your hips are dragging across the boat.

    Pick two of the combination.

    Prove me wrong, post video.
  • ZmanZman Posts: 1,748 Mega Baller
    Great point. Can you please elaborate on what you see as key fundamentals or technique needed for smearing your ski on command?
    What does a skier do different, or better to move from carving turns to more smear?
  • wawaskrwawaskr Posts: 335 Crazy Baller
    @MarcusBrown I completely agree, and one of the reasons I moved away from HO skis. They always seemed to want to ride their own line, and you could never make them smear on demand. Is the new Alpha designed in such a way to allow the skier to do this?
  • ghutchghutch Posts: 169 Baller
    @scoke I'm going to go with hips dragging and shoulders probably tilted. Still struggle with getting them up but they are improving. Thx
  • adamhcaldwelladamhcaldwell Posts: 766 Open or Level 9 Skier
    @scoke - "shoulders tilted across the boat" - why it is bad? Hips dragging I agree with, and elbows bent I am about 50% on board with....

    @MarcusBrown - no lie - at first even myself was a bit "lost" with that statement Correct me if I'm way off, but are you speaking to the point of controlling the slip/rotation of the ski into and through apex in absence of a perfect connection with the line?. For instance, when trying to salvage a pass that started off poor timing on the boat?
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,710 Mega Baller
    @MarcusBrown for those of us who have 38 as their most difficult pass...meaning I've never run 39, how important is it to set up the ski to smear better at 38, and deal with a less ideal set up on openers and mid-passes?
    Probably a mistake but I've most often played with set up from 28-35, but that's because I'm a more consistently well positioned skier at those lines. It's hard to test a lot of 38 when I only make all 6 20% of the time...but want to improve on that 20%
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,272
    A long time ago, Andy Mapple emphasized to me the importance of setting up the ski for 38 and accepting what it does at 32 and 35. He was quite emphatic about that point. Fortunate for me I was on a Mapple Ski without a great degree of difference.

    Special Thanks to Performance Ski and Surf and the Denali Adam's !!!
  • WishWish Posts: 8,269 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Best set ups I’ve ever had were setting that felt worse at 28 and 32 then 35 and 38.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • TELTEL Posts: 422 Crazy Baller
    @adamhcaldwell so at what point is fin tuning or binding placement needed 35 off? 38 off? What needs to be done? Move fin forward, back, shorter, longer, shallower, Deeper? For myself 22-28 off my ski works very well. I am working on 32 off, I am sure the problem is me but would a little ski tuning help at this point, if the ski is working at longer line lengths?
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