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How do skis react to cold water? or do they?

scokescoke Posts: 688 Crazy Baller
edited December 2010 in Skis Fins Bindings
<p>
We know our bodies react to cold water so how do skis react to cold water?
</p>
<p>
 Some have consistently felt a change in their performance based on the ski, as well as physically but we are holding that a constant, in the colder water.
</p>
<p>
After some tweaking, thinking and talking to a few skiers:
</p>
<p>
<img src="http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/8885/pvt2.jpg" border="0" width="825" height="637" align="middle" />.
</p>
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«1

Comments

  • jimbrakejimbrake Posts: 1,378 Mega Baller
    that's what she said
    "...all of the basic fun banter"
  • WadeWilliamsWadeWilliams Posts: 19
    edited December 2010
    <a href="http://www.shrinkpictures.com/">resize the pic</a>



    skis and bodies are affected by cold water. how doesn't really matter IMO, bc,



    as the water gets colder it is more <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viscosity">viscous</a>



    colder water = thicker water = more viscous

    =

    thicker water = harder to slide your ski thorugh = feels "faster" because your ski rides higher in the water.



    hotter watter = less viscous = "thinner" water = ski rides lower in the water = feels "slower"



    Let's Visualize water molecules (disregard weight):.



    Low viscosity = hotter water = marbles

    High viscosity = colder water = basketballs



    Think about how your ski would react in those two mediums...


    <a href="http://www.proskicoach.com/gear/cold_water_ski_setup/">tips on Cold Water Ski Setup</a>





    also would add that the chart you posted is likely true across many brands, because it is the water that changes more than your ski or your body.





    ________________________

    <a href="http://www.wetjacket.com">wetJacket</a>
  • TuneyTuney Posts: 244 Baller
    I ski in cold water - in fact it doesn't really get much warmer than high 70's for the hot parts of the year. My take on it is I am affected by the cold far more than the ski is.. mentally and physically. But my idea of cold is water in the 50's and air at a similar temp. I'm not as loose and I really don't want to fall - so my skiing isn't as good. So really I can't really blame the ski's performance or be a reliable judge of how it is affected.
  • GloersenGloersen Posts: 1,028 Mega Baller
    edited December 2010
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Personally I note a HUGE difference here in Jax when the water gets < 66<sup>0</sup>F.</font>
    </p>
    <font face="tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif">This is noticed mostly with regard to unpredictable & unexpected blow-outs. Additionally it does seem more difficult to create width & space. I don’t attribute this to the ski being “faster” in cold water. Faster imo equates to getting wider & earlier, somewhat counter-intuitively, a great pass (wide & early) often feels “slow” but if theoretically covering a greater distance it must be “faster”. In any event, great passes are harder to come by consistently for when temp <66<sup>0</sup>F. </font>
    </p>
    <font face="tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I suspect most of this is attributable to the increasing surface tension of water as the temp declines. As many have stated, the ski probably rides higher on the surface and this probably has a greater influence (viscosity influence as well) towards the tail of the ski creating a more level attitude (pitch), thereby creating more relative tip pressure, thus harder to get wider. Many advocate moving the fin forward ~.005” to accommodate; it makes sense. Based on blow-outs, I’m also inclined to drop the whole fin down (L:D unchanged) as well.</font>
    </p>
    <font face="tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif">The greater viscosity of water with lower temps intuitively implies more friction (viscosity is essentially fluid friction) and thus, relative to warmer water, the ski’s response will be slower. It may seem like we are skiing “faster” but only because it is harder to create width & space; that is those less than desirable passes when one barely gets around each ball and felt as though they were rocketing, holding on with whatever can be mustered to complete a “fast” pass. Before ZO we would end the pass asking the driver how much + rpm adjust was added, the response being the time was a 17.12 or something disappointingly slower than expected…. Imagine skiing in molten lava, tomato soup,.....</font>
    </p>
    <font face="tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif">IMHO cold water skis slower, we just ski crappier and feel like it is faster (just like a crappy warm water pass). It also hurts a lot more after the nasty blow-outs!</font>
    </p>
    <font face="tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Who knows what happens with the ski’s flex; can’t imagine it getting anything other than less. How does carbon/resin flex vary with 30<sup>0</sup> variations in temp?</font>
    </p>
    <font face="tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif">In Florida winter sucks; unequivocally.</font>
    </p>
    </font>
  • WadeWilliamsWadeWilliams Posts: 19
    edited December 2010
    PFG's on it, the colder water does ski "slower" though most skiers call it "fastr"



    faster = a feeling you get when you ski more at the buoys



    slower = a feeling you get when you ski wider, earlier



    since colder water = more friction = physically slower = most skiers ski more at the buoys = feels faster



    ______________________

    <a href="http://www.wetjacket.com">water ski social network</a>
  • bmiller3536bmiller3536 Posts: 298 Baller
    <p>
    Yes, your ski rides higher in the water when it is colder. But I am also wearing a drysuit with some other form of clothing underneath. Does that extra weight counteract the colderwater and make your ski ride at the same depth with just shorts and vest?
    </p>
    <p>
    Wouldn't the same principal be applied to the boat as well? So in colder water your boat would hypothetically turn less RPMs because it rides higher in the water? But I ski with PP and I use the same skier weight, crew weight etc as I used all summer.
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
    Brad Miller
  • Old MS AccoutOld MS Accout Posts: 2,114 Baller
    More important, how does dual loc react to changing temps? I am sure that 3M has some studies on binding release vs temps 
  • rq0013rq0013 Posts: 564 Baller
    All I know is that i ski better and feel better when the water is around 80. We had water near 85 then had a cold rain come in dropping the temp of the lake by 15 degress. I skied aweful and as soon as it warmed back up I skied much better. I think more of it was my fin setup was for warmer water compared to colder. I used the cold water setup that wade posted and it really helped this fall.
    Rob Quetschke
  • skibugskibug Posts: 2,093
    <p>
    The chart definitely reflects my thoughts on optimum water temp for skiing.  Seems as though my ski feels best when the water is between 75 - 85 degrees.
    </p>
    Bob Grizzi
  • HortonHorton Posts: 29,574 Administrator
    Right after the rain is the best!

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  • DustyDusty Posts: 315 Baller
    I'm willing to bet the most significant factor is the skier- wearing more clothing, being tighter, less flexible.  Water gets denser until about 39 degrees then gets less dense until freezing (reason ice floats, which is useful in cocktails for example).  I'd suspect  denser water would float the ski higher?  Less surface immersed= less friction= faster?  Are there any pilots or hydroplane drivers out there who can advise?
  • CraigCraig Posts: 114 Baller
    edited December 2010
    <p>
    I posted this on TWSF about two months ago with respect to cold water skiing.  I am a 4th year PhD student and work on thermo/fluid systems in addition to skiing.  The result of this combination is that I spend a lot of time analyzing skiing.  My area of expertise helps understand some aspects of the sport to a bit more depth than most, and this issue falls into that category, I think.
    </p>
    <p>
    Here are my thoughts verbatim from TWSF on the impact of cold water on skiing:
    </p>
    <blockquote>
    <p>
    Everyone seems to think that density changes drastically with temperature, it does not. I have attached a plot showing how both density and surface tension change with temperature.
    </p>
    <p>
    If you look at the maximum change (between 40F to 100F) the density of water changes 0.70%. The surface tension changes 3.3% over that same range.
    </p>
    <p>
    However, if you look at the viscosity of water, it changes 56% over that temperature range (see attached picture on next post).
    </p>
    <p>
    Viscosity is a fluids tendency to resist flow, as it increases the fluid will resist moving out of the way more. This could account for a ski riding a bit higher in the water and additionally it will increase skin drag (i.e. more effort to obtain the same result).
    </p>
    <p>
    Based on the above information, I would theorize that cold water feels faster but physically skis slower.
    </p>
    </blockquote>
    <p>
    I would add to this that there is no doubt a human factor here that is difficult to quantify (changes in flexibility due to clothing, desire, changes in strength and skill over the season, etc.).  However, the sheer magnitude of the change in viscosity would lead me to believe that water properties play some significant role in performance. This lines up with scoke's plot, so if all other things constant, a ski is going to perform differently at different water temperatures.
    </p>
    <p>
    The most interesting part about scoke's plot is that there is a perceived optimum at all, as opposed to being near 100% for any temperature above some value.  This leads me to wonder if, as a result of a high level of sensitivity to water temperature, we have to train ourselves to perform at a specific temperature.  Meaning someone like scoke, who trains in very warm water, has adapted his style and equipment to ski his best at certain temperatures.  Whereas, I am from much further north so my optimum may be close to scoke's but maybe shifted a few degrees cooler because of how I have had to adapt my style for generally cooler conditions.  This last bit is just a theory, I have no evidence to support this claim.  I would like to know what the average temperature is for scoke's ski season is, and how far off from his perceived optimum it is.
    </p>
    <p>
    Here are some plots that show the water properties as a function of temperature.<img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_ZEz8NDGLxu8/TQD8P4qXV0I/AAAAAAAABBg/AYPwTqI42iQ/s640/water_props_P1%20%28Medium%29.jpg" border="0" alt="water_props1" vspace="50" width="640" height="398" align="left" /><img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_ZEz8NDGLxu8/TQD8QWGQQZI/AAAAAAAABBk/Uee2d5KLJ1Q/s640/water_props_P2%20%28Medium%29.jpg" border="0" alt="water_props2" width="640" height="438" align="left" />
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  • CraigCraig Posts: 114 Baller
    edited December 2010
    <p>
    In the interest of full disclosure, I am a below average skier, at best.
    </p>
    <p>
    28 off, 36 mph FWIIW.
    </p>
    <p>
    Not trying to sound cocky in my previous post, I'm used to technical writing.
    </p>
  • DWDW Posts: 2,228 Mega Baller
    <p>
    I would suggest that cooler temperatures not allowing the ski to ride as deep will result in less surface area contact and less attainable angle therefore creating the skiing at the buoy and narrow scenario.
    </p>
    <p>
    Skoke, in your graph, in the vertical or ski perofrmance axis actually have a number or metric attached that mathmatically drove those percentages?  If not, how did you come up with those values.  As I thought about that, I thought that perhaps buoy count v. temp might offer some insight or at least be something measurable.
    </p>
  • HortonHorton Posts: 29,574 Administrator
    <p>
    <a href="http://www.ballofspray.com/vanillaforum/account.php?u=414"><strong>h2oski1326</strong></a>
    </p>
    <p>
    Hey dude there are a lot of skiing levels here. Your ideas are as good as any  - you can be as wrong as the rest of us. Everyones ideas are always welcome here.
    </p>

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  • BulldogBulldog Posts: 1,033 Crazy Baller
    What about the effect of temperature in regards to water clarity? That would have a direct effect on how the water would feel…dirty = slow clear = fast We had to just put another layer of h2o on our backyard rink this am so all of my water is frozen:-(
    Mike Loeffler - "Someone somewhere is having a real problem today...My bad skiing is NOT one of them"
  • CraigCraig Posts: 114 Baller
    <p>
    Horton,
    </p>
    <p>
    I appreciate that.  Just trying to avoid the post reading like I think I know everything about skiing or anything else.
    </p>
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    <p>
    An interesting tidbit about murky water.  Some water/clay/mud suspensions are known as non-newtonian fluids.  In particular, shear thinning fluids. A shear thinning fluid is a fluid in which its viscosity decreases with an increase of shear stress applied to it.  In other words, the harder you push on it, the less viscous it is.  Could explain why some sites with murky water ski really well.
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  • Old MS AccoutOld MS Accout Posts: 2,114 Baller
    <p>
    Scoke,
    </p>
    <p>
    Next time you are with Chet, ask him about this subject. His dad a Nuke physicist and he explains it a whole lot differant then what you would expect. In theory, cold water should ski eaisier.  
    </p>
  • RichardDoaneRichardDoane Posts: 4,459 Mega Baller
    my Strada loves the cold water....
    BallOfSpray Pacific Northwest Vice President of Event Management, aka "Zappy"
  • HortonHorton Posts: 29,574 Administrator
    <font face="Calibri" color="#000000">
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font size="3">I find this endlessly unfortunate but almost every time I hear or read an explanation of skiing biased on science or physics it is wrong. <span> </span>Maybe this is a broad brush but it sure seems to be true. </font>
    </p>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font size="3">I always thought that I could not get the rails to engage on heel side (on side) in cold water so I had less angle and everything feels fast. Sort of like an over stiff fin. Ahhh crap lets not go there.</font>
    </p>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font size="3">On toe side (1/3/5 RFF) most skiers have more ski in the water (tip down) but less roll at apex. On Heel side (on side) most skiers have the tip up a little more but the ski rolls in a more because it is more natural to swing your hips inside the line.<span>  </span>In warm water these two different ski attitudes seem to work. In colder water the heel side approach with more roll but less ski in the water seems to fail.</font>
    </p>
    </font>

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  • Old MS AccoutOld MS Accout Posts: 2,114 Baller
    <p>
    RD,
    </p>
    <p>
    Your Strada has never been in warm water has it? 
    </p>
  • scokescoke Posts: 688 Crazy Baller
    <p>
     
    </p>
    <p>
    this thread made a lot of sense until people start talking about "toe side/heal side" etc. Confuses the hell out of me as i have a heal on both feet and 10 total toes. my head is spinning after that 1 post!
    </p>
  • Old MS AccoutOld MS Accout Posts: 2,114 Baller
    I tried to start up a anti dual loc mix in this thread and it failed. I should have waited until January.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 29,574 Administrator
    <p>
    Scoke,
    </p>
    <p>
    Toe Side = Off side = 1/3/5 if you are RFF  /  Genereally less hip counter and more front foot pressure
    </p>
    <p>
    Is it that hard?
    </p>

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  • scokescoke Posts: 688 Crazy Baller
    edited December 2010
    <p>
     
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    <p>
    Very.
    </p>
    <p>
    i've got two move across buoys on the left and i've got 3 move across buoys on the right. An entrance gate and an exit gate. that's it. Why complicate it? Simple right?
    </p>
    <p>
    Why make it harder with: leading shoulder, most confuse it,trailing shoulder, good side, bad side, on-side, off-side, hips countering, countering move, stance, balance, closed to the boat, open to the boat, toe side, heal side, west coast, east coast, old school, new school, COM, COM trailng. yada yada yada. ahh hell my head is spinning. no wonder this sport is made harder than it needs to be.
    </p>
    <p>
    throw ball, catch ball.
    </p>
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  • scokescoke Posts: 688 Crazy Baller
    edited December 2010
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000">Some of you guys hit on exactly what I was thinking when I built this graph.</font>
    </p>
    <font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Calibri">Especially this line: <em>so if all other things constant, a ski is going to perform differently at different water temperatures.</em></font></font></font>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000">This is the assumption that has to be made as we all agree to the falling points:</font>
    </p>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000">Yes there is some physical drop-off in our actual performance when the water temp drops, agreed.</font>
    </p>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000">Yes the water feels differently due to the viscosity, faster slower etc, agreed.</font>
    </p>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000">My point is going one step further: </font>
    </p>
    <strong><span style="color: black"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">When the water temp fluctuates with these high end skis, sometimes our performance improves and decreases due to the SKI.</font></font></span></strong>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Calibri"><span> </span>My theory follows this line of thinking: There might be a range when the water swings 5-10 degrees and our performance goes down NOT because of our physiological state water temperament but the actual ski reacting to temperature. An example is a warm water/warm summer and a cool rain changes the water temp down into the optimum range. Physically we are still in the same place of performance and the viscosity has changed a bit but now all of a sudden the ski feels more alive, free of the boat and reactive as it’s supposed to.</font></font></font>
    </p>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000">Perceived optimum is a great term brought up. One persons perceived optimum might be quite different for another but that could be a perception based on the environment of which that person is training. What I am looking for is a perceived penultimate optimum. Is 78-82 degree water the optimum water temp to ski in? That’s the real question. </font>
    </p>
    <font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000"> </font>
    <p class="MsoNoSpacing">
    <font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000">I’ve got three years worth of data on my own skiing but here is a snapshot from this year:</font>
    </p>
    <p class="MsoNoSpacing">
    <font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000">In three years there is plenty of enough sets and buoys actually run for an overall body of work too.</font>
    </p>
    <font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000"> </font> <font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000"></font><font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000"></font>
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    <p class="MsoNoSpacing">
    <font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000">Air Temp/Water Temp (+/- 5 Degrees)</font>
    </p>
    <p class="MsoNoSpacing">
    <font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000">Percentage of Sets Skied</font>
    </p>
    <p class="MsoNoSpacing">
    <font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000">65/65</font> 8<font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000">%</font>
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    <font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000">70/70</font> <font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000">5%</font>
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    <font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000">75/75</font> <font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000">9%</font>
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    <font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000">80/80</font> <font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000">25%</font>
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    <font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000">85/85</font> <font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000">27%</font>
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    <font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000">90/90</font> <font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000">11%</font>
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    <font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000">90/85</font> <font face="Calibri" size="3" color="#000000">15%</font>
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    <span style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><font color="#000000">So yes primarily I ski in warm water. What brought this discussion up was the fact that as soon as the water temp dropped below 78 degrees myself, and other skiers I’ll bring up later, felt our skis did not perform as well as in warmer water. Once the water broke the 74 degree barrier, it felt like the ski was different. Didn’t rebound as quick, rode higher in the water, and didn’t follow through with its moves. Just a consistent degradation in performance was observed. At this point in time, our air temp was still warm enough to wear a trunk and vest so physically the water temp wasn’t affecting the body, yet.</font></span>
    </p>
    <p>
    <span style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><font color="#000000"></font></span>
    </p>
    <p>
    <span style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><font color="#000000">My point is, once the water temp starts changing temp and our performance goes up and down, IT IS THE SKI!</font></span>
    </p>
  • Old MS AccoutOld MS Accout Posts: 2,114 Baller
    <p>
    Scoke,
    </p>
    <p>
    Go to page 78 in your journal. Make sure to read the note you wrote to yourself about buying a Strada. You wrote somthing like " MS looks great on that Strada, I need to get one soon"
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
  • HortonHorton Posts: 29,574 Administrator
    I am with MS. If you want i can sign that Strada for you. That will give you at least 3 balls.

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  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,438 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    <p>
    We had a prolonged MN warm spell this year, and I saw water temps in the mid 80's.  At it's peak, Razor1 and I had the opportunity to ski at Trophy Lakes on ZO behind a LXi.  Going in, my 35's were consistent, but not where I wanted them in feel and form.  Razor's 35's kicked butt, but his 38 not where he wanted.  
    </p>
    <p>
    That day I ripped straight through 38...and crushed it.  Wondered what I should do next, and decided back to 35 and train.  Ran 4 stupid easy passes and called it a set...it was honestly easier than 28 off that day.  Razor goes out and runs straight thru 38 easy, runs 38 again easy, then smokes (and I mean smokes) the first 39 of his life.
    </p>
    <p>
    Shortly thereafter the temps dropped hard, and we never recaptured the magic of that day, even at the same site behind the same boat.  I always thought it was the optimal water temp that day that helped our skiing.       
    </p>
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • clemsondaveclemsondave Posts: 369 Baller
    edited December 2010
    I've been trying to tell people for a long time to move the fin back in cold water, but no one believes me. Glad I have some allies on here. Right now, though its too frickin cold to come close to the water.




    MS, how do those tight rubber bindings do in cold water? Some of those things were crazy tight in warm water, can't imagine how poorly they release in the cold. I don't see how dual lock changes in the cold.



    scoke, i hope it warms up quick or we will have some mighty cold water at Okee.
    Dave Satterfield - Richmond Water Ski Club
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