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Indexing (clocking / twisting) bindings

Is there a consensus on the results of rotating bindings? Right foot forward, I have always rotated my back binder as far left as possible.
I’m thinking of turning my front binder to the right a bit. Standing flat on the floor I feel more stable in that position. Plus my knees are starting to ache and I thought that might help. What’s everyone doing?
Chuck Link, Deland Florida

Comments

  • DWDW Posts: 2,295 Mega Baller
    Front straight, rear twisted. RFF. I also cant my front ski boot (cant as in snow ski boot terminology, or camber in automotive terminology). I would certainly give it a try, I have seen some discussion on effects of each (can't remember specific source, might have been Schnitz), would be worth a search. If it helps knee pain that is a win. Good luck.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,171 Administrator
    edited December 2020
    @scruppers
    There are a few super elite skiers who twist their front foot but seriously that is some fringe voodoo. I can not see how rotating your front foot is not going to create imbalance.

    I personally rotate my back foot a bit to be more ergonomically comfortable.

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  • S1PittsS1Pitts Posts: 261 Solid Baller
    Funny thing I used to rotate both bindings just a bit but my knees started getting sore last season.
    I set them inline and knee pain went away. Probably different for everyone.
    BG1
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 3,063 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited December 2020
    Your on side turn is, generally speaking, controlled by your back foot while your off side turn is controlled by your front foot. Therefore you can adjust on side turn with back foot rotation and off side turn with front foot rotation. Toe and heel rotation do different things at different points in the turn. You can also shift the centerline of the shell right or left of center to balance turns. None of this is voodoo.

    Some people choose to rotate each foot in the opposite direction, so the heel is always rotated to the inside of the turn controlled by that foot (on side-back; off side-front). Some call this “duck foot.” This is a common stance and places the foot on the ski in a comfortable position. Comfort, however is not the goal; the goal is optimal tuning of the ski. This may result in more heel rotation than toe rotation or vice a versa, or in my case, rotating both heels to the left and both toes to the right. I’m LFF.

    On the other hand, you have to ski on a binder that allows for rotation. Many rear binders are designed to rotate. As to front binders, Reflex isn’t designed to rotate. . Fogman is, as is MOB and Goode. Fogman designed and patented the rotational binding. Connelly and HO are licensed by Fogman. I ski in a Fogman set up. Call me a dinosaur.

    Fogman displayed a totally new binding at Nationals this summer.

    Second to last paragraph, third sentence edited.
    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
    DWliquid d
  • ProStah_SkiahProStah_Skiah Posts: 17 New Baller
    @DW what method do you use to cant the front boot? Spacers under one side of plate, wedge plate, insert in the boot, other?
  • DWDW Posts: 2,295 Mega Baller
    @ProStah_Skiah - Yes, stainless steel washers under the side I am lifting. For me, RFF lift the inside or big toe side of my front foot. Have done this for many years. Easy and cheap, use longer screws to get same thread engagement.
    ProStah_Skiah
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,171 Administrator
    I KNOW I CAN'T STOP YOU GUYS BUT I WANT TO OFFICIALLY DISCOURAGE ANYBODY FROM ROTATING THEIR FRONT BINDING.

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  • JackQJackQ Posts: 396 Open or Level 9 Skier
    @lpskier, You are not the dinosaur using Fogman. I am or the "last of the moccians " using rubber binders! I tired many, always felt unsafe and never skied any better. Post surgery/COVID I have trying a toe plate vice double binders, which is trying to teach a old dog a new trick.
    lpskierluckyosunBruce_Butterfield
  • MDB1056MDB1056 Posts: 581 Crazy Baller
    Guess I misplaced my dinosaur club card, as not in any hardshell. I'm a tfactor fan. LFF, front always straight, slight cant to rear boot. Old guys rule......... Onward.
    Calisdad57
  • scuppersscuppers Posts: 468 Baller
    @MDB1056 Canted or indexed?
    Chuck Link, Deland Florida
    Deanoski
  • JBBJBB Posts: 104 Baller

    This is canting a ski boot
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 3,063 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    My bindings cant do that. ;-)
    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
    dchristman
  • MDB1056MDB1056 Posts: 581 Crazy Baller
    @scuppers - guess it would be indexed then based on above / meaning as a LFF my rear binding is slightly rotated so toe goes right and heel left ( slightly clockwise) . It’s very slight .
  • ProStah_SkiahProStah_Skiah Posts: 17 New Baller
    @DW thanks! I am going to try some canting with washers next summer. Why don’t you also cant the rear toe plate?
  • DWDW Posts: 2,295 Mega Baller
    @ProStah_Skiah - Thought about doing that also, reason for not is I don't think it is as critical and the binding is also more flexible so not as needed. From just putting myself in the ski position, it does not seem as though the cant orientation is as prevalent for the rear leg.
  • S1PittsS1Pitts Posts: 261 Solid Baller
    edited December 2020
    I have been canting my front foot since 2008. Not for the reason being discussed here but because when I broke my ankle the bones healed crooked and I could not pressure the inside of this foot. I have run as much as 1/2 inch wedge on the inside but as time has passed the mobility and strength has improved. Down to 1/8 inch these days. It made the difference of being able to ski or not.
  • RGilmoreRGilmore Posts: 89 Baller
    edited December 2020
    There was a great series of posts on the forum a few years ago about canting your waterski bindings to compensate for bowed legs. Well researched and very thorough instructional piece.

    "Canting my bindings on the ski helped me overcome years of problems"

    Note: the illustrations above show a cantable snow-ski boot, and do not relate to water ski bindings
  • ProStah_SkiahProStah_Skiah Posts: 17 New Baller
    @S1Pitts similar for me. My ankle-foot alignment is such that I have a hard time pressuring the inside ball of foot without also rotating my knee to the inside.
  • DeanoskiDeanoski Posts: 991 Crazy Baller
    @JBB that is shaft alignment

    canting is done on the bottom of the sole.
  • scuppersscuppers Posts: 468 Baller
    @Horton - John you are pretty emphatic about not twisting the front binder.
    What are your thoughts/reasons? My original inquiry was based on my knees hurting and I thought it might help relieve the twist on them. Just experimenting on the dock, If I stand on a line on the floor in a water ski stance (toe to heel) RFF - I am much more stable if I have a bit of twist on both feet.
    The front toe slightly to the right and the rear toe slightly to the left. Shifting them straight in line I can hardly balance enough to stay standing. Again= Your thoughts?
    Chuck Link, Deland Florida
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,171 Administrator
    edited December 2020
    @scuppers

    Back boot angle is great - fine.

    I tend to discourage skiers exploring wild ideas in the hope that it is going to fix some undefined problem.

    Without doing a lot of research I can not imagine that twisting my front foot either way is going to increase my stability or power through the wakes in both directions. I guess rotating my toes counter clockwise (RFF) could help my stance from 2/4/6 to 1/3/5 but would be a nightmare from 1/3/5 to 2/4/6. The edge change into 1/3 would be scary.

    Bottom line is I want my toes and front knee pointed in the direction the skis is traveling for basic balance. I do not want to twist or contort my stance in any way. If I am comfortable and balanced through centerline things are going to work themselves out.

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    OldkierJake_D_French
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