U21 Trick Record of 12220 by Patricio Font

ROBOT

http://www.iwsf.com/

Cooper_Trelawney

2nd pass was amazing! He managed not to travel too far outbound on his flips.

Jody_Seal

Toe seven front toe 5 back. No credit.
As a judge I question this with many skiers that do this series as on the 7 front skiers
ski commonly does not come completely forward. The ski is at 10 o'clock at best in this series before the no credit toe 5.
back. With the ski very much obscure by the wash I guess tie goes to the runner.




Please don't hate on my opinion. I watched the font kids grow up to be very fine young men and they were raised by very fine parents. Patricio is one of the world's best as well as a record holder.
However why are the standards for slalom records so much more stringent then other of the sports disciplines?

Bruce_Butterfield

I have to agree with Jody on the no credit for the T7 / T5B, and also the T5F in the middle of the run. The ski only got to 90 deg and nowhere near all the way front. Its sometimes hard to see where the ski is pointed, so you have to look at the knee. Its directly to the side.

Given some the extremely critical judging I've seen at L tournaments cutting tricks that were really close, these are clearly NC.

Still an amazing run.

The_MS

Need more East German judges

skierjp

😎My Ski Nautique and I was the driver. Huge thunderstorm in the background with very choppy water. We had a couple rain delays and high winds.

wski1831

Incredible run!

Horton

Pato is on the path to becoming one of the greatest of all time along side Cory and Ace. I agree that those tricks are not credit but just can't throw shade at that kid.

skierjp

Not a trick skier but my ankle rotates left and right so I’m not sure if the knee position can be the determining factor on where the ski is pointed.

dchristman

Interesting thought @skierjp , but you will notice when you try to rotate your foot without your knee rotating, there is some roll to your foot the more it rotates. Laying on the couch with a bent knee and rotating my foot it seemed it might be possible to keep the foot straight with knee at about 45deg from straight - that would leave some room for argument. However when I put a boot on a ski and try to achieve the same results I can't get my knee rotated more than a few degrees different from the direction my foot is pointing. Of course every person's range of motion varies a bit, but I think you would have to be a freak of nature to have your knee angled 90deg different that foot and still be skiing.

I conclude that the direction of the knee is a good indicator for the direction of the ski. However, the problem is you are supposed to be judging the direction of the ski. If you can't see the ski, can the direction of the knee be considered direct evidence of the direction of the ski and used to reach judgement? It seems some judges give the benefit of the doubt because they can't see the ski and others base their judgement on knee direction. Perhaps there needs to be a clarifying rule.

What would be interesting would be an analysis of frame rate and the speed of rotation of the trick. How many missed frames would be needed to not see the knee get to the angle it actually achieved and would that difference, along with some average range of motion numbers for the knee/foot, be enough to make judging by the direction the knee is pointing questionable? This would pertain to live judging as well since humans have a maximum perceived frame rate.

ALPJr

The video was awesome! Some of the comments sound like a position / direction tracker embedded into trick skis could be one of the next innovations. Would that drive or diminish interest and viewership in the discipline?

dchristman

Just thinking about my last statement, if the human frame rate is 60fps and a 360deg turn happens in 1 second, 3 degrees of rotation when direction changes could be missed. Pato's T7 takes less that 2 seconds. Include the x-factor for his ankle rotational mobility. Is it credit judging by his knee direction? Benefit of the doubt goes to the skier.

@ALPJr NO!

Jody_Seal

Or the explanation rule of the toe 720 front to front could be re named toe 660 front to slide!
Showed it to My son who has become a high end trick judge and commonly judges in excess 11,000 point trick skiers.
No credit toe 7 no credit toe 5.
He also said there seems to be a bit of a judgment issue within the judges qualified to judge this level of skier. The issue is some think that the hips should come completely forward ( not the ski?)for credit. He told me that is not a good indication of a credit scoring toe trick.
He also has judged Pato many many times and said he has seen pato very clean toe 720/540 this though was not credit.

skibackwards

Great run but did this video make it past the COMMITTEE for approval ??? I always pick Patricio in Fantasy Ski

rogerw

Cracking skiing.
Happy new year everyone

eleeski

WTF? This issue was resolved decades ago with Cory's records. It was actually a breakthrough in tricks as he showed us that the ski should lead and it's OK for the upper body to be way behind. The front edge defines the trick! The rules require new tricks to be demonstrated by a skier - not words written in a rule book. Cory's past records and Pato's performance define the trick - not some fundamentalist internet reading of the words in the rule book.

I coach everyone learning a RTO or its derivatives (like T7 or T5F) to lead with the ski, hold back the upper body and turn out as soon as you feel the front edge enough to push off it. Everyone I coach scores the tricks.

This thread is exactly why I've been avoiding social media. Too much criticism, skewed information, muzzling of opinions (how many posts has Horton deleted of mine? And why am I still banned from many topics? And why am I disrespected with "Infinite Pandas?) A benign social media ski site is using the same tactics as the most sophisticated Chinese controllers.

I consider Jody a good friend. We've shared beers and good times. We've agreed and disagreed on many things. But it is too easy to post harmful opinions and criticisms in social media. These posts can have the effect of having future judging different from how people were judged in the past. I hope Jody is not on a panel judging me. Judging like that is harmful to the sport - something a dying sport should not encourage!

I get really discouraged when EVERY great performance is unjustly criticized and questioned here. Records voided, tournaments downgraded and skiers singled out have happened from social media gone wild. Should we approve of this?

Congratulations Pato on a spectacular performance and a demonstration of what we should strive for!

Eric

Horton

love you @eleeski

Bruce_Butterfield

@eleeski welcome back:) I'm agree the shoulders/upper body can lag, but I'm confused by your comments. Are you saying the SKI does not need to come fully forward? What do you mean by "front edge"? The tip or side?

From my view of the video and judging by knee position, the tip of the ski doesn't get more than 90 deg and not anywhere near forward. Is it your judgement that getting the ski to 90 degree is full credit? Is that what was resolved decades ago?

aupatking

I don’t know what you guys are arguing about. He didn’t even make his gates, let alone buoy 1

Jody_Seal

@eleeski
You probably will never have me as your judge as I am pulling away from that aspect of the sport along with other aspects of officialdom within the sport.
Before I posted my thoughts on this record please understand I gave the video to Stephen who judges this level of skier and has judged many many runs over that 11,000 iwwf mandate. What I got back from him was amazing trick runs however he said nc t7f, nc t5b. He also said he has seen lots of t7f from pato and usually it is lot cleaner. He also said that in reality the imag was poor due to the wash of the boat obscuring the ski. He also said because the the ski was so obscured he understands how the run credits due to the current judging ideology.
It is always nice to judge what you can actulally see rather then make an assumption judgement.
Loose the halo my friend and put on a hat or you might get heat stroke out their in the badlands of the Mohave!

aupatking

Aside from my joke earlier, seeing senior judges arguing over credit/no credit on particular tricks in a video review kinda seems like the system is doing what it should: tie goes to the skier.
To be clear, I’d be willing to agree with either side’s rationale as to why they C/NC those tricks, but when judges of the same level cannot agree, I do believe credit goes to the skier.
You boys be nice. The interweb is all friendly, you know