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My onside turn problems. How Should I fix ? Need Advise!

FunoRyotaFunoRyota Posts: 19 Baller
edited December 2020 in Technique & Theory


Hey Ballers! I need some help!

Here is a video of me shoulder/elbow drop on my onside turn.
It happens when the line gets shorter.
I'm 28,32 and 2 at 35 guy normally.
I still can run but I really need to fix this my habit to run 35.
TW told me to stay open to the boat and that helped me to keep my shoulder level. I need to keep doing it though.

I would like to know how you guys think about my skiing and how you guys try to fix !
I coach many collegiate skiers so I wanna learn how you coach for skiers like me.

Any advices appreciated! Thank you !
Cheers !

Comments

  • Stevie BoyStevie Boy Posts: 2,193 ★★★★Quad Panda Award Recipient ★★★★
    edited December 2020
    Onside, take the handle with you, stand up, ride the ski, you maybe fixated by the bouy, and eager to turn, hence a little narrow and getting in deep, slowing the ski, missing out on angle cross course.
    A video of the gate shot would of been quite useful, it all starts there, the difference between chasing the boat or being in the zone, if you do not have the width to start with, you are going to come up short.
    Watch video of TW, do not watch him, watch where the line is on the boat, pretty sure every swing the line is going to be in a identical place on both sides.
    Your sking is much better than mine.

    Addicted To Carbon Fibre

  • FunoRyotaFunoRyota Posts: 19 Baller






    I’m posting some full pass videoed 32off/36
  • Stevie BoyStevie Boy Posts: 2,193 ★★★★Quad Panda Award Recipient ★★★★
    What I see is, going out to 1,3,5 the ski transitions nice and early and swings outbound for you, going to 2,4,6 your hands are a little higher, stopping your ski swinging out, you pull a little longer, then use your arms for the edge change, use knees and hips to maintain angle out towards 2,4,6.
    This may help the ski transition earlier and move outbound for 2,4,6 without using your arms.
    Maybe more back arm pressure out of !,3,5
    Just my two cents worth, others are going to see different things.

    Addicted To Carbon Fibre

    luckyosunFunoRyota
  • thagerthager Posts: 5,140 Mega Baller
    Your gate looks like you should pull out a little wider then stay out wider in the glide by staying on your outside edge before turning in for the gates. You are gliding on the inside edge reducing your width, angle and swing. Also looks to me like you need to be more patient in your turns at 1-3-5 maintaining a little more front foot pressure longer. You are transitioning to the tail of the ski (Rushing the turn) and are back on the handle before your ski comes under the rope.
    Stir vigorously then leave!
    FunoRyota
  • ReallyGottaSkiReallyGottaSki Posts: 218 Baller
    edited December 2020
    Heh, you know that thing, you keep doing...dont do that.

    but more seriously, you appear very dedicated and in great shape

    I'm seeing the item you wish to correct seems to be even more acute when you are low on energy entering ost.

    Handle control, handle discipline , I observe giving the boat too much handle in preturn
    I see that elbow purposefully, reactively going down to scoop water, so thats why the shoulder is dropping. Grabbing a big handful of turn but folding to absorb the line loading prior to sweeping the legs around fully and ready to turn loading into acceleration.

    So, i interpret the messy ost as trying to overcompensate for other less visually apparent items

    . stack appears you understand how it should go but in execution..the body is crushed more often than not somewhere in the cut, and trying to reel in the hips. This means missing energy. so pursue a stance that needs less motions/corrections throughout should net you big gains. I would also consider freeski the sh|t out of that place to tune in the symmetry and work on some things so you don't trade form for orange balls.
    Sensei says practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect

    Even the osc should have more leverage putting power down than this image indicates, i see your shoulders are leading the charge, feet and hips trying to catch up.

    FunoRyota
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,860 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    I think Scoke pretty much nailed it. The result you have now is your hips are back into, during and out of the turn, so the only way to get the ski to turn is drop your shoulder, which leads to other bad things. You need to stand taller into the buoy and focus on turning with your hips.
    I'm Ancient. WTH do I know?
    ZmanFunoRyotaHorton
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,562 Mega Baller
    @scoke is right on your arms...u will be amazed at your efficiency if u allow them to be straight in your lean and get your hips under yourself instead of them trailing.
    If I’m early into onside and waiting I have a tendency to dunk like you. Don’t fixate on the ball take a gaze down buoy line and reach there too...not really there’s but more that way then at the wake or boat it will keep that inside shoulder higher. Slide under the rope at turn and go...the rope should be higher so u don’t have to go so low.
    The above may not sound technical, but I really have fought an onside overkill for many years it’s just some things that work in my head.
    If I get behind we’ll all bets are off driver needs 2 hands for my 2 and 4
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
    OldkierZmanFunoRyotaHorton
  • FunoRyotaFunoRyota Posts: 19 Baller
    @scoke Yes. you are right. I'm Pull but kinda lean guy. When the line gets shorter, i can't get wide enough and cut in a strong position. I will try stretch my arms on purpose and ski more efficient.
    With arms streatching, my upper body should be face to the boat at the wake ?
    or arms stretching but try to face around next buoy?


    @thager Narrow gate is all time problem. I will try go wider and keep that width with outside edge!

    @ReallyGottaSki Thank you for your sharp observation!
    Hips are bend, behind, giving the handle to the boat is my weakness.
    I will try hard to stand tall everywhere and stay close to the handle even after the wake!

    @Bruce_Butterfield
    Stand tall!
    It's easy to say and try to do stand tall in the course.
    What is your mind or head when you try to stand tall in the course?
    Hips over your front foot? Stretching both legs ?
    I want to know what's in their mind when told to stand tall.


    @6balls
    Thank you !
    I always worry about my onside. Will keep trying head up, inside shoulder higher!


    @RGilmore
    Two hands on the handle londer for get winder and tight line!
    I came up with the Cory Pickos's slalom. His slalom is like alomost two handed slalom.
    I will try hold the hand with two hands as long as possible and release much less time to get a tight line!!


    THANK YOU FOR MANY ADVICES !!!

    My site is always open during winter so I'll get ski as many as possible and try those key tips you guys told me!

    1 Straight my arm with hips up. Ski efficiently.
    2 two hands on the handle longer for tight line.

    I'll post some videos next week!
    ReallyGottaSki6balls
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,860 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    @FunoRyota one trick that can really help is to visualize keeping your shoulders facing downcourse at all times. Here's a link to an article that describes the concept, but unfortunately the pictures and illustrations got lost in one of Horton's website makeovers.

    https://www.ballofspray.com/home-page/tech/785-staying-open

    The key here is that attempting to keep your shoulders perfectly downcourse is a single thing to focus on that forces you to stay tall, upper body still, and turn with your hips.
    I'm Ancient. WTH do I know?
    6balls
  • ForrestGumpForrestGump Posts: 6,177
    You never really relax your arms. You keep tension in your biceps. Fix that and a lot of things are resolved. Good skiing. That looked cold as hell. I couldn't do it. lol
    Shane "Crash" Hill

    Than_Bogan
  • FunoRyotaFunoRyota Posts: 19 Baller
    edited January 4
    @Bruce_Butterfield It was you who wrote this article here!
    https://www.skiall6.com/articles/bruce-butterfield/staying-open

    That's why I recognize your name somehow!
    Now I understand so much better!!

    I was misunderstanding the term of " open shoulder at the turn" and " Always face downcourse" means. It's same thing.
    I was wondering how should I do that " always face downcourse " and " open shoulder at the turn"
    " face to the downcourse " meant Face to the boat during cut, and then open to the outside of the course at the buoys. like 2 separated thing.

    But now with Figure 1 "Ideal skier path with shoulders always facing downcourse" It got my head so clear!

    When you turn , where do you look?
    If I'm turning buoy 2(my onside turn), I look at 4,6 buoy? the boat? or next buoy?
    Bruce_Butterfield
  • FunoRyotaFunoRyota Posts: 19 Baller
    @ForrestGump Lowest temp will be below 28F rest of this week.
    My site is a Dam so no ice all winter.
    Let's see what happens when I ski in such a cold temp.... I'm kinda excited though hahaha
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,860 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    @FunoRyota where to look is a topic of endless debate and no really clear universal answer. Looking downcourse, across or at the back of the boat are keys that work for some skiers and not so well for others. If you are a really “visual” person, it may help to find a good point to look at. If you are not that visual its better to focus on “feeling” what your body is doing.

    With your weather being so cold, its better to keep the rope longer (or slow the boat to 34) and focus on body position to engrain good technique and less on max buoys. I would slow to 34mph and run lots of 28 and 32 off until it gets warmer. Even young bodies don’t perform in the cold :)
    I'm Ancient. WTH do I know?
    6ballsFunoRyota
  • FunoRyotaFunoRyota Posts: 19 Baller
    @Bruce_Butterfield
    Jay Bennett told me to use mid loop.
    Which do you think its better to slow the boat down to 34mph and do lots of 32s
    or use mid loop(34off) at 36mph?
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,860 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    Both mid loop and slowing have the same effect of making the next pass easier. If your weather was more normal for waterskiing I think the mid loop would be better.

    However as a general rule when the water is really cold, slowing the boat and working on technique is better.

    Keep in mind that if you have even a slight chill you should not be attempting your hardest pass. Much better to do repetition of good technique at easier passes.
    I'm Ancient. WTH do I know?
    FunoRyota
  • FunoRyotaFunoRyota Posts: 19 Baller
    @Bruce_Butterfield
    Got it!!
    Thank you!!
  • RGilmoreRGilmore Posts: 90 Baller
    @FunoRyota if by "Stretch Arm" you are trying to have reminder for the point I made, you might be better served with "Fully Extend". The concept is that, at apex, your ski is as far away from the handle as it can be without the handle being pulled free from your grip.
  • FunoRyotaFunoRyota Posts: 19 Baller
    Big cold front hit our area and had so much snow so I only got to ski one set.

    Still struggling with keep the back arm elbow close to the body after the wake so my shoulders aren’t level.

    But I immediately felt the difference by doing “face down course” on my gates.
    My center of mass was better position than better.
    I just keep doing these during winter.
  • FunoRyotaFunoRyota Posts: 19 Baller
    edited January 13


    This is after
    I think this is better COM position than before.
    Bruce_ButterfieldthagerVONMANReallyGottaSki
  • FunoRyotaFunoRyota Posts: 19 Baller


    This is before
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,860 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    @FunoRyota good start! You are still leading with your shoulder and have too much weight on your back foot. Your goal is to "try" to get ALL your weight on the front foot and lead with your hips.
    I'm Ancient. WTH do I know?
    FunoRyota
  • FunoRyotaFunoRyota Posts: 19 Baller
    @Bruce_Butterfield
    Still need to be more horizontal ! And not 50:50 weight . 100:0 on my front foot..😳
    Ok I will try !!! Thank you!
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,214 Administrator
    @FunoRyota

    Try this. On your gate turn-in think about bringing your left hip around and pointing it at the boat while keeping your shoulders level. You are never going to totally close off your hips in this direction but I think closing your hips a bit more will do a lot for your connection.

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