2021 Class C tournament, sure-path is being used. At the end of a pass sure-path shows red "mandatory re-ride"
Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
sure-path rules 38 votes
Its 2021 and Sure-path is optional so LOC can choose to not enforce re-rides
Your using it so Re-rides must be given
0
Comments
at least for the coming season sure path is for the driver and judges information only ( Class C ). it is an instructive tool. if the officials determine that the skier is substantially advantaged or disadvantaged I don't see why they could not offer the skier every ride.
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Unless sure-path is doing the driving really soon, it needs to have a significant break-in time with access to EVERY tournament driver. Even for the people skiing, those constant re-ride tournaments are unbearable.
A. The boat path is intended to be a straight line along the centerline of the course.
B. Where end course is available [bold mine], the towboat pylon shall not deviate by more than 20cm (7.87in) from the course centerline. For instances where end course video is not available, the boat shall follow a straight path as close to the centerline of the course as possible.
So its a pretty reasonable argument to say that Surepath is equavelent to end course video. So if you have either end course or Surepath, even in a Class C, if the boat path deviates to the skier's advantage, its a mandatory unprotected re-ride. If its to the skier's disadvantage, its an optional protected re-ride.
The conundrum comes in if you are pulling kids at slow speeds or breaking in a new driver at longer lines/slower speeds. The rules haven't caught up with common sense, so if I was CJ or CD at your Class C, I would make an executive decision that passes less than 28 off at division max speed would not be subject to boat path re-rides.
And @Bruce_Butterfield my answer to this poll assumes reasonable decisions like your “less than” exclusion. I think that’s a solid reasoning.
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Just because the boat is 20cm to the right at one ball does not mean the driver is helping the skier.
Also as the rope gets shorter all of this matters more and more. At 22 or 28 off I dare anyone to feel a 20cm deviation. At 39 off a pro skier might feel every 3-5 cm.
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In the Southern Region, we unanimously agreed to make it mandatory for all Class L/R tournaments in the Southern Region for 2021. When used, EC video is used as a backup. SurePath data will be required to be submitted for those tournaments.
I think those saying it's "optional" are ignoring other, important parts of the rule book. As @Bruce_Butterfield highlighted above rule 10.07 talks about Boat Path -
10.07 Boat Path
A. The boat path is intended to be a straight line along the centerline of the course.
B. Where end course is available, the towboat pylon shall not deviate by more than 20cm (7.87in) from the course centerline. For instances where end course video is not available, the boat shall follow a straight path as close to the centerline of the course as possible.
C. Class E tournaments also see Rule 14.04.B on Record forms.
10.07 A says "straight line along the centerline". This is for all tournaments - class F thru R. The question is HOW you know the boat path is straight. For class F & C there are no requirements to use any technology to confirm this and we typically rely on boat driver and boat judge and, sometimes, the skier who asks for a boat path reride which is agreeable to the judges. In other words, the REQUIREMENT is for a straight boat path and corrective action needs to take place if it's not straight. Using SurePath (in a class C tournament) would HELP the officials know if it's in fact straight. It's not a requirement but it's certainly not prevented from being used. If used, it makes sense to use the results (same with video).
10.07 B discusses "where end course is available" (I think something descriptive should be added here like "end course monitoring or measuring is available"). Here it defines a maximum variation from the centerline which, unless either video or a boat path monitoring system is used, is impossible to measure. Again there is no limitation on class of tournament and, inferred is IF it's used, here's how to use it. Makes sense to use the results if you use it.
10.07 C is specific for Class E tournaments and discusses cumulative deviation for record verification. Here end course monitoring (video) is required so it can be actively measured.
10.10 D discusses Rerides - specifically boat path rerides and references 10.07 - "D. Boat Path Deviates Outside the Bounds of Boat Gates: See Rule 10.07". Again there is no distinction between a Class C/E/L/R tournaments. Simply says if the boat path is out of the bounds of the boat gates, you give the skier a reride.
Finally, rule 1.12 discusses tolerances -
"1.12 Tolerances
In any activity involving the performance of an official where a tolerance is involved, it is the official's responsibility to be as close as possible to the actual specification. All tolerances are to allow for human error and the use of tolerances by Officials to improve skier performance will not be tolerated." This means that ALL officials have a responsibility to follow the rules and tolerances are held to actuals. This again applies to all classes of tournaments. As an aside, this is the rule that the PanAm region and IWWF TC have used to eliminate or reduce scores for all skiers at a tournament deemed not following the rules (especially as it pertains to boat path).
So, the question I have is, if you use SurePath at a class C tournament (setup properly) AND it comes up the boat path was out of tolerance, as an official responsible to maintain the rules are followed and tolerances maintained, how can you NOT call for a reride? This is like using gate cameras and seeing a missed gate and saying "not needed in a class C, lets ignore it..."
It is correct that it's not required for class C and most certainly will not be required this year for class C (or class E/L/R anywhere beyond the Southern Region). But if you do use it, I'd suggest the rules support following the results of what you see using the technology.
AWSA Chairman of the Board
AWSA Southern Region EVP
So at a Class C if an LOC wants to use surepath as a learning tool, I guess they better turn it off for all but deep shortline or be faced with endless re-rides. Kinda defeats the purpose.
If a CD wants to give a new assistant driver some seat time in a slower speed, longer line group - and use surepath as a learning tool - your suggestion either takes away the use of that tool, or creates many re-rides.
Giving a kid at 19mph long line a re-ride because the boat is 10" toward him is just plain stupid. Our organization does enough stupid things already, there is no need to add to it.
Until the rules catch up, and LOC should be able to use surepath and let the CJ/CD put some sanity into how its applied.
I hope we will all get access to the path data collected to see just how many passes are, in fact, out of tolerance. It would be helpful to see how close the driving is in any and all settings. You need to sample the population to determine what the real world occurrences are and use those observations to help craft the most reasonable rules.
I can hardly wait for the next leap forward.
"Introducing TightLine™, the new tournament regulation confirmation technology. TightLine™ combines laser precision and radar with image recognition software to detect and measure the skier's handle thousands of times during a slalom pass to ensure that the overall length never exceeds the maximum allowed, even under 1000+ pounds of pull. Measuring handles on the dock is so 2020. Pull into the future with TightLine™ and measure the handles where it really counts - while you're skiing."
Sounds similar to running magnetic timers to check GPS timing??
Using SurePath means you don't have to dedicate an official watching a monitor.
AWSA Chairman of the Board
AWSA Southern Region EVP
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So why for Sure Path?
I’ve seen end course video quality in R tournaments that was pathetic. I don’t believe I’ve been at a tournament that the event was stopped to measure or review the end course video for tolerance. That’s been done days after the event.
If I am a boat judge or driver and see a skier miss and then see from the SurePath data that it was likely driver error I would immediately inform the skier so they can request a re-ride.
It is not like boat times where the rules dictate the re-ride rules. I think we can use it with a little bit of judgement.
Are we making this hard for not reason? Can we agree that bad boat path is unlikely a good reason for a Girls one 19mph re-ride? Can we just use common sense?
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