sure-path rules

dislanddisland Posts: 1,494 Mega Baller
2021 Class C tournament, sure-path is being used. At the end of a pass sure-path shows red "mandatory re-ride"
Dave Island- Princeton Lakes

sure-path rules 38 votes

Its 2021 and Sure-path is optional so LOC can choose to not enforce re-rides
57%
HortonRogerskiepGloersenPSMlpskierskiinxsralJackQBbrandauricowski1831Jibboaupatkingmike_mappleMike GileTELLiquidZonelazzn6_Buoys 22 votes
Your using it so Re-rides must be given
42%
dislandKelvindave2ballraynMarkTimmski4xtcjayskiThe_MSklindydavid_skiaussiemcZmanbkreisDkLkSkrellenmRAWSki 16 votes
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Comments

  • RAWSkiRAWSki Posts: 897 Mega Baller
    Your using it so Re-rides must be given
    No choice to give skiers the option?
  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,404 Administrator
    edited January 28
    Its 2021 and Sure-path is optional so LOC can choose to not enforce re-rides
    @disland as of today there is nothing in the rule book pertaining to the use of sure path in class the events.

    at least for the coming season sure path is for the driver and judges information only ( Class C ). it is an instructive tool. if the officials determine that the skier is substantially advantaged or disadvantaged I don't see why they could not offer the skier every ride.

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  • aupatkingaupatking Posts: 1,699 Mega Baller
    Its 2021 and Sure-path is optional so LOC can choose to not enforce re-rides
    Serious question from a non-rated driver. My question: how hard is it to actually be in tolerance? Would you say that 65% of our practice passes likely don’t qualify? 30%? 15%? This is exactly what I have been worried about with Sure-Path. We had, all but, eliminated re-rides with PP and even better with ZO. I’ve been offered re-rides 2 times since I started skiing tournaments in 2013-2014 after 20 years not skiing, and those were human error of wrong speed or ZO setting. I remember constant re-rides, back in the early 90’s.
    Unless sure-path is doing the driving really soon, it needs to have a significant break-in time with access to EVERY tournament driver. Even for the people skiing, those constant re-ride tournaments are unbearable.
  • ralral Posts: 1,917 Mega Baller
    Its 2021 and Sure-path is optional so LOC can choose to not enforce re-rides
    @aupatking , it is not hard if you practice with it. I would say that many practice passes are out mostly because of the lack of feedback. It has improved our local drivers a lot in a short time by having it always in the boat.
    Rodrigo Andai
    aupatking
  • aupatkingaupatking Posts: 1,699 Mega Baller
    edited January 28
    Its 2021 and Sure-path is optional so LOC can choose to not enforce re-rides
    I appreciate your feedback @ral. How do I go about getting Sure Path? I would like to pull skiers in only “in-tolerance” passes, every time. I’d like to think that I’m on the “better than decent” side of driving. I’ve pulled several pros who have actually asked that I drive for them, so.... maybe I am. Maybe. End course video is not likely to be something I can set up on my lake. I just want my skiers getting the same pull as they would in a tournament.
    And @Bruce_Butterfield my answer to this poll assumes reasonable decisions like your “less than” exclusion. I think that’s a solid reasoning.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,404 Administrator
    Its 2021 and Sure-path is optional so LOC can choose to not enforce re-rides
    @Bruce_Butterfield my spy on the rules Committee tells me there will VERY likely not be a Surepath rule for class C in 2021

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  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 2,002 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    @horton I agree. Its similar to end course for class C. Overkill except for a learning tool. But to the original question/poll - if you have it, what are the required re-rides? The rules haven’t caught up, so I offered my opinion/suggested usage.

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  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,404 Administrator
    edited January 28
    Its 2021 and Sure-path is optional so LOC can choose to not enforce re-rides
    @Bruce_Butterfield What is interesting is the debate over how the rules should read. I believe SurePath Tournament Mode is going to show the greatest deviation 5 meters before and 10 meters after the boat guide. I am not sure it should be as cut and dry as the old fast time and slow time rules.

    Just because the boat is 20cm to the right at one ball does not mean the driver is helping the skier.

    Also as the rope gets shorter all of this matters more and more. At 22 or 28 off I dare anyone to feel a 20cm deviation. At 39 off a pro skier might feel every 3-5 cm.

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  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,734 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Your using it so Re-rides must be given
    All, I am sure they will not be a specific rule to use SurePath (or other monitoring system including video) for class C tournaments this year. For L/R the IWWF rule book does have language on how to use it in a tournament scenario but it is not mandatory for 2021.

    In the Southern Region, we unanimously agreed to make it mandatory for all Class L/R tournaments in the Southern Region for 2021. When used, EC video is used as a backup. SurePath data will be required to be submitted for those tournaments.

    I think those saying it's "optional" are ignoring other, important parts of the rule book. As @Bruce_Butterfield highlighted above rule 10.07 talks about Boat Path -

    10.07 Boat Path
    A. The boat path is intended to be a straight line along the centerline of the course.
    B. Where end course is available, the towboat pylon shall not deviate by more than 20cm (7.87in) from the course centerline. For instances where end course video is not available, the boat shall follow a straight path as close to the centerline of the course as possible.
    C. Class E tournaments also see Rule 14.04.B on Record forms.


    10.07 A says "straight line along the centerline". This is for all tournaments - class F thru R. The question is HOW you know the boat path is straight. For class F & C there are no requirements to use any technology to confirm this and we typically rely on boat driver and boat judge and, sometimes, the skier who asks for a boat path reride which is agreeable to the judges. In other words, the REQUIREMENT is for a straight boat path and corrective action needs to take place if it's not straight. Using SurePath (in a class C tournament) would HELP the officials know if it's in fact straight. It's not a requirement but it's certainly not prevented from being used. If used, it makes sense to use the results (same with video).


    10.07 B discusses "where end course is available" (I think something descriptive should be added here like "end course monitoring or measuring is available"). Here it defines a maximum variation from the centerline which, unless either video or a boat path monitoring system is used, is impossible to measure. Again there is no limitation on class of tournament and, inferred is IF it's used, here's how to use it. Makes sense to use the results if you use it.

    10.07 C is specific for Class E tournaments and discusses cumulative deviation for record verification. Here end course monitoring (video) is required so it can be actively measured.

    10.10 D discusses Rerides - specifically boat path rerides and references 10.07 - "D. Boat Path Deviates Outside the Bounds of Boat Gates: See Rule 10.07". Again there is no distinction between a Class C/E/L/R tournaments. Simply says if the boat path is out of the bounds of the boat gates, you give the skier a reride.

    Finally, rule 1.12 discusses tolerances -
    "1.12 Tolerances
    In any activity involving the performance of an official where a tolerance is involved, it is the official's responsibility to be as close as possible to the actual specification. All tolerances are to allow for human error and the use of tolerances by Officials to improve skier performance will not be tolerated." This means that ALL officials have a responsibility to follow the rules and tolerances are held to actuals. This again applies to all classes of tournaments. As an aside, this is the rule that the PanAm region and IWWF TC have used to eliminate or reduce scores for all skiers at a tournament deemed not following the rules (especially as it pertains to boat path).

    So, the question I have is, if you use SurePath at a class C tournament (setup properly) AND it comes up the boat path was out of tolerance, as an official responsible to maintain the rules are followed and tolerances maintained, how can you NOT call for a reride? This is like using gate cameras and seeing a missed gate and saying "not needed in a class C, lets ignore it..."

    It is correct that it's not required for class C and most certainly will not be required this year for class C (or class E/L/R anywhere beyond the Southern Region). But if you do use it, I'd suggest the rules support following the results of what you see using the technology.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Chairman of the Board

    dislandJtim3032
  • RAWSkiRAWSki Posts: 897 Mega Baller
    Your using it so Re-rides must be given
    @klindy please elaborate on the use of End Course video as a back-up to sure-path. Is this an online traditional set up or off-line?
    Sounds similar to running magnetic timers to check GPS timing??
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,494 Mega Baller
    Your using it so Re-rides must be given
    @Horton we need a "that hilarious" button for @MISkier
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
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  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,734 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Your using it so Re-rides must be given
    @RAWSki EC video as a backup for SurePath (or other approved system) would be the same as we have currently. The idea is if SurePath fails or temporarily doesn't work, there is a video to watch for 11.25 and shorter. The rules say we need to monitor boat path 11.25 and shorter for E/L/R. So you'd have a choice of getting SurePath working again or going to video.

    Using SurePath means you don't have to dedicate an official watching a monitor.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Chairman of the Board

  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 2,002 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    As I think about this more, since the rulebook is silent on surepath or any similar system, it is perfectly logical to use it a training device only. Any boat path re-rides would only be determined by whatever other prior means were used (driver, boat judge or skier request, etc). Any "out of tolerance" indicated by surepath would be ignored.
    I'm Ancient. WTH do I know?
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  • teammalibuteammalibu Posts: 1,112 Mega Baller
    @klindy, who watches/monitors the sure path during the R tourney, and how long will end course be required for backup?
    Mike Erb Cedar Ridge Canton Miss.
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  • Chad_ScottChad_Scott Posts: 572 Open or Level 9 Skier
    @teammalibu the tracking system is linked to the live scoring. The judges will see the screen with the deviations. It will also be green if good or red if not
    klindy
  • skiinxsskiinxs Posts: 675 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Its 2021 and Sure-path is optional so LOC can choose to not enforce re-rides
    If re-rides are being discussed for red screens, another question needs to be discussed. What about a pass missed by Sure-Path. If the whole pass isn't recorded, do we re-ride that pass. It happens and this should be in the rules discussion as well.
    ski6jones
  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,404 Administrator
    Its 2021 and Sure-path is optional so LOC can choose to not enforce re-rides
    @skiinxs I'm yet to see sure path not record an entire pass unless the Wi-Fi that goes down or something. generally speaking the system just works.

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    RAWSki
  • skiinxsskiinxs Posts: 675 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Its 2021 and Sure-path is optional so LOC can choose to not enforce re-rides
    @Horton I absolutely love the system, but I disagree. After using my system for well over 1,000 passes over the last year my best estimate is at least 50 missed or partial missed passes. The reliability improved significantly after I switched from using my cell phone as a hot spot for the rover to a sim card in the rover, but there were still missed passes. Some were certainly wifi issues at the base station at my dock, some were poor gps reception in the boat, some ended up unexplained, as sometimes it is hard to troubleshoot while you are driving. Many of those "other" causes were likely an unstable voltage source if the boat was shut off at the end of the pass to talk to the skier. Those were improved by using a portable power bank to stabilize voltage. James made a software improvement mid-year that helped isolate if the correction signal from the server was over 60 seconds old with a green indicator and number of seconds old the correction signal was. I think most of the other issues are quality of gps signal at the pylon antenna. I was using the small antenna all year and James recommends the larger antenna for important use, i.e. record tournaments. My larger antenna was delivered today, but it is winter here and I won't know if that completely eliminates missed passes for me for a couple months. Once again I think the system is amazing, but if rules are being developed, the boat crew needs to know what to do if rerides are dictated by out of tolerance passes, and there is no data to tell if it is out of tolerance. Certainly even if the system is functioning flawlessly, a loss in wifi signal to the base for over a minute would cause a missed pass. Does anyone have an ISP that never has a glitch? At my lake, there are lots of ISP glitches, as I am sure is the case at many remote lakes. My recommendation would be no data = no reride.
    jayskiski6jones
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 3,357 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Its 2021 and Sure-path is optional so LOC can choose to not enforce re-rides
    You can use Sure Path in a tournament for two reasons: 1) as the official determination of boat path, in which case that reride ought to be given; or 2) for information purposes, which is to say it is not official.
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  • skierjpskierjp Posts: 1,048 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    We never had a back up for end course!!!!!
    So why for Sure Path?
    I’ve seen end course video quality in R tournaments that was pathetic. I don’t believe I’ve been at a tournament that the event was stopped to measure or review the end course video for tolerance. That’s been done days after the event.
    RAWSki
  • RAWSkiRAWSki Posts: 897 Mega Baller
    Your using it so Re-rides must be given
    I agree with @skierjp don't make it more complicated with a back up for one item. Commit to the new tech or do not.
    MISkier
  • BG1BG1 Posts: 218 Baller
    edited January 31
    Set up 2 Sure-path’s in the boat LOL. They could have had 2 video cameras like an over/under shotgun all this time but nobody thought of it thank goodness. It would be some bad luck if someone missed a record because of a technical failure but from what I’m hearing on here sounds like that is very unlikely with Sure-path.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,404 Administrator
    Its 2021 and Sure-path is optional so LOC can choose to not enforce re-rides
    The bottom line is that you may use the data in a Class C but it is not technically official data.

    If I am a boat judge or driver and see a skier miss and then see from the SurePath data that it was likely driver error I would immediately inform the skier so they can request a re-ride.

    It is not like boat times where the rules dictate the re-ride rules. I think we can use it with a little bit of judgement.

    Are we making this hard for not reason? Can we agree that bad boat path is unlikely a good reason for a Girls one 19mph re-ride? Can we just use common sense?

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  • wski1831wski1831 Posts: 162 Baller
    Its 2021 and Sure-path is optional so LOC can choose to not enforce re-rides
    Sure Path looks like a really good system, is improving all the time and a good addition to tournaments. It seems to me trying it out for a year will allow judges and drivers to get used to it. Whether it shows red or green at the end of a pass if the boat crew determines it’s warranted there should be a reride given.
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