Revise AWSA Rule 10.12??? 1/4 balls

HortonHorton Posts: 31,402 Administrator
edited September 9 in News & Other Stuff
I am going start a few threads in the next week or two about rules changes I am thinking about. This is the first one.

AWSA Rule 10.12
My assumption is the ¼ balls are awarded to skiers much more often than they are actually performed. More often than not the score should have been a ½ or 0 for the ball in question.

I propose that in any event Class L or higher that a score of ¼ requires a video review.


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Comments

  • RichardDoaneRichardDoane Posts: 4,791 Mega Baller

    i looked through the rulebook last week, and could not find any reference to the "benefit of doubt" that the skier receives if the judge can not tell if he/she missed the buoy. Anyone else know about that reference ?
    BallOfSpray Pacific Northwest Vice President of Event Management, aka "Zappy"
    Horton
  • MattPMattP Posts: 6,311 Mega Baller
    So you want to require boat video for all class L events as well?
  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,402 Administrator
    @MattP I think so, yes. At least on my side of the country I think it is already more common than not. Outside of the subject of quarter buoys I'm much prefer a five judge configuration over a three judge plus video configuration. That is central to my next proposal.

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  • ski4xtcski4xtc Posts: 213 Crazy Baller
    @richardDone - look at rule 1.15 on page 5. When a judgment call is too close to call and cannot be decided by allowable reviews, then the benefit of the doubt shall go to the skier. Is that what you were looking for?
  • KelvinKelvin Posts: 1,305 Mega Baller
    @ski4xtc I believe that rule in in the AWSA rulebook, but Class L events are governed by the IWWF rulebook that does not contain such a rule.
    Kelvin Kelm, Lakes of Katy, Katy Texas
    klindy
  • ski4xtcski4xtc Posts: 213 Crazy Baller
    @kelvin, I totally forgot about that. Thanks
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,878 Mega Baller
    edited September 4
    IMHO, the 1/4 buoy zone should not exist. If it were my rule to write, both those shaded areas would award a 1/2 buoy. In other words, if the skier skied wide of the buoy line and past the buoy it would be 1/2 regardless of if the skier came back across the buoy width line or not.




    All existing scores with a 1/4 remainder could be rounded up to 1/2 to allow for comparison with future scores. Past competition results need not be reviewed since the "winner" clearly skied further around, even though going forward the 1/4 vs 1/2 zones would simply be a tie score.


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  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 2,002 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    I agree 1/4 buoy is frequently called incorrectly but requiring video review is an additional complication and I doubt it will change the judges who call it wrong to begin with.

    The 1/4 buoy criteria was changed in the early ‘90’s to a more confusing and harder to call diagram we have now. It used to be 1/4 for getting outside the buoy line in skiing position and not the forward quadrant. It’s not the first time rule changes that were intended to simplify and make consistent made things worse.

    At any rate, in my experience as both a skier and judge, the only legitimate way to score 1/4 is to hit the buoy in skiing position and yard sale away. If you can get past the buoy in skiing position at anything shorter than about 28 off you will be coming back into the course and score 1/2. If you “drop the handle” and ski past the buoy it’s because you weren’t going to get outside it and it’s 0.

    Those 3 rules of thumb would go a long way to educating judges IMHO.

    I would also like to see the rule revert back to “outside the buoy line” for more consistent judgement calls.
    I'm Ancient. WTH do I know?
    thagerHortonThan_Bogan
  • RichardDoaneRichardDoane Posts: 4,791 Mega Baller
    @ski4xtc yes. That’s it. Thanks. I also forgot about L events being under foreign jurisdiction.
    BallOfSpray Pacific Northwest Vice President of Event Management, aka "Zappy"
  • marknmarkn Posts: 460 Crazy Baller
    Think it would be less complicated and subject to less review if you make the gate or you don't. How many reviews and/or potential protests could arise from "I touched the gate ball?" Always thought the gates were the entry into the course.
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,619 Crazy Baller
    edited September 5
    @Bruce_Butterfield I don't know if one would have to "hit the buoy", but an ensuing "yard sale" is almost mandatory. What galls me is to see a 1/4 called the the skier doesn't fall. As you said anything shorter than 28 (maybe longer than that) is impossible not to come back. @ToddL suggestion that 1/4 be removed completely makes a lot of sense to me.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,345 Mega Baller
    Photo below was scored 1/2 at Nationals this year. Should have been no score IMO.

    Agree video is needed to call these split second situations.

    I think we should have rules that make it easier to judge with the naked eye. Not a huge fan of NFL replay review.

    In skiing the delay could freeze the next skier.
    Or have an adverse effect on next inline by breaking concentration or cold water or feet getting cramped, etc.



  • dbutcherdbutcher Posts: 507 Crazy Baller
    It's not 1/2, but could it be a legitimate 1/4?
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,345 Mega Baller
    @dbutcher when I saw it “live” I thought maybe a stretch for 1/4. Video changed my mind to 0. How judges called this 1/2 is anyone’s guess.

    The way I read the rules the skier boots should be at the buoy, not just the tip, when the handle is dropped.

    I have seen skiers on 38 called 1/4 when they held the handle past the buoy for quite a ways and I scratch my head how a skier on 38 off can go 30 feet past the buoy without breaking the buoy line back to wake. I guess it’s their interpretation on what is skiing position and continuance. But that sounds more like figure skating judging to me. We all know how that works!
    drew
  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,402 Administrator
    edited September 5
    I think @A_B's post underlines my real point. Looking at that image I think the score is 0 for that ball but I am not 100% sure. It looks like she lost the handle before she passed the ball but I am not really sure. 1/4s are so hard to get.

    That video angle is not sufficient to call that score. If I was a Nationals judge, seeing that image, I would have given her the 1/4 because I could not prove she missed it even though I am pretty sure she missed it.

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    A_B
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,345 Mega Baller
    edited September 5
    @Horton the announcers called it 0 maybe 1/4 from their booth. When judges awarded 1/2 they sounded a little surprised and moved on.

    I would like to see a poll of official judges who are shown a picture of a ski tip crossing the XY line above and see if they score it a 1/4 or 0. Maybe some would call it 1/2. The policy clearly states “the skier” crosses the C and XY line. That means precisely what? Boots thrown out with skier behind the ski sliding on the water or the legs of the skier? Body of the skier? What is “skier” crossing the XY line? It sure doesn’t mean just ski tip to me.

    Wasn’t the current scoring rule installed in an attempt to stop skiers from holding onto monster slack and shooting ropes into the boat? Has that really happened? Maybe when it comes to a full buoy vs half buoy, unless it’s in the end gate. Supermen like AM Roberge and Lapoint would get a death grip on the handle and get yanked out of the water while holding onto huge slack lines. I don’t really see that too often now so maybe it has helped a little in that regard. But it has caused major confusion on 0, 1/4, and half at all levels of judging.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,402 Administrator
    edited September 5
    @A_B That angle is not a good example. No one can be sure from that angle.

    What I really think is that we need high def cameras in the boat with a camera person (NOT a Wakeye or SkiDoc) . It could be as simple as a cell phone. This would require some thinking and some processes but it does not need to mean new equipment for the LOCs.

    Old GoPros on a mount will never be as good as a competent person with a cell phone camera. If there is a hard call the video of the pass can be sent immediately to the other judges.

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  • drewdrew Posts: 106 Open or Level 9 Skier
    @Bruce_Butterfield takes note of a reality--by the existing rules, a skier on even a somewhat short rope that satisfies requisite elements of 10.12A will more than frequently also satisfy 10.12B. Accordingly, there is disparity between the intent of the rule and the literal application of the rule.
    I believe the solution may lie in an improvement in the definitional requirement of 10.12B to include language involving a committed turn with the return of the free hand to the handle. Accordingly, 1/4's and 1/2's are distinguished.
    A_B
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,345 Mega Baller
    @horton agree on video angle for the 1/4. I am pretty darn sure it wasn’t 1/2 though from any angle!
  • MarkMMarkM Posts: 167 Open or Level 9 Skier
    There should be a 3/4 buoy score as well.
    Falling around the buoy vs getting back to the wakes and popping the handle shouldn’t be the same score.
    JackQ
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 2,002 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    @Horton so you want a 3rd person in the boat. Ok give that a little thought- he will have to be moving around at the shorter lines to see around the driver’s head and frequently obscuring the boat judge’s view. I think your solution will have multiple unintended consequences and not offer much improvement until the judges get better guidance on how to judge the 1/4.
    I'm Ancient. WTH do I know?
    MattP
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,619 Crazy Baller
    The above photo (that angle only) is obviously not 1/2 and by that view only is 0.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
  • DragoDrago Posts: 1,673 Mega Baller
    ⬆️Proof that a camera won't help⬆️
    SR SL Judge & Driver (“a driver who is super late on the wheel and is out of sync”)
    sunperchRazorRoss3Bruce_ButterfieldThan_Bogan
  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,402 Administrator
    @Drago What?

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  • The_MSThe_MS Posts: 6,454 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    Set it up like an NFL game and have 30 video angles. Don’t even need tower judges. (Jest)
    Shut up and ski
  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,402 Administrator
    under some judges configurations we mandate video so why isn't it at least always high def?

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  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,733 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @Horton Boat Video is ONLY required
    For class R. And legitimately there are probably fewer than 15 skiers (male and female) at any one time capable of breaking a record. And it’s extremely rare they ALL show up at the same place on the same weekend. And even then there just needs to be a video recording. It does not have to be hi def and (most importantly) it does NOT need to be transmitted to the shore for immediate review.

    The change you’re recommending would mean you need to transmit Hi Def video to a judges tower for immediate review. The rig TWBC uses is about 10k a pop ( plus camera).

    You suggested just use a handheld iPhone and basically text it to the judges. As a CJ I’d say no thanks. It’s bad enough already when everyone has instant access to the webcast. While the coverage is great, you get dozens of arm chairs judges all with separate opinions and “proof” they’re right. There’s a reason there is an “official video that reviews a a judgement. Calls are made from. I’m all for using the Bree possible but this is asking for chaos.

    I’d rather consider adapting the rule that requires $100 or $250 to challenge a call and get it reviewed. I’d suggest it should be free, should come from another competitor or legit representative ON SITE and have some credible”evidence” the call is wrong. It won’t be long before we have surepath data showing up on everyone’s cell phone too.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Chairman of the Board

    Bruce_ButterfieldMattP
  • DragoDrago Posts: 1,673 Mega Baller
    @Horton you got zeros and quartets up there
    SR SL Judge & Driver (“a driver who is super late on the wheel and is out of sync”)
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