how do you score this??

Horton

MDB1056

Very carefully……..

lpskier

While at first it appears that the ski is going inside the buoy, it clearly goes around it. If the buoy is displaced, it is displaced by the front binder, not the ski. Therefore it’s a minimum .25. Jon has the handle, the ski is supporting his weight and he is otherwise in skiing position well after the buoy. At short line, the ski crosses the half buoy line immediately after the buoy so long as the skier has the handle. I score a half, unless he recovers his position and makes it back to the line of boat guides with a tight line by the next set of boat guides. The video does not show what happens, so I score a half based on what we see.

Interesting distinction. If an L/R, you can run over the next boat guide, but in a C/E, you can’t. Compare IWWF Rule 8.09(c) (“at or before”) and AWSA Rule 10.03(A) (“before”).

MarkTimm

3, got his ski around the ball and back in skiing position before the next set of boat guides.

6balls

Got around the ball...half --(assuming he didn't stand up that bit of ridiculousness and get back to the wake before the next set of guides)

ALPJr

‘A’ for effort

Stevie Boy

One Big Fat Zero "0" but I am not a certified Judge.

Than_Bogan

I would guess that another angle would show the ball significantly displaced and therefore no additional buoys.
But if this video is the only evidence available, then I have to give another 1/2, simply because I can't be confident that it's not.

thager

I don't....

Gloersen

tough call; great video clip

real time I'd likely give the 1/2 (or outside the buoy score) but the clip reveals vertical (downward) displacement imo; so no score beyond the prior full buoy.

8.08: A Miss or "Riding Over"
a) Skier Turn Buoys. It is a miss to ride inside a turn buoy, or to ride over, straddle, or jump a turn buoy.
There is no penalty for grazing a turn buoy with the ski or part of the body. Riding over shall be defined as hitting a turn buoy with the ski so as to move it significantly from its position or temporarily sink it.

Hitting a turn buoy less severely shall be considered as grazing.

UCFskier

in this case if you give a 1/2 bouy you have to give him a full. He returns (in a skiing position) to the middle of the wake prior to the boat guides... 3

MISkier

I would not have wanted to make this call real time. I think the buoy is displaced, so I'd say no credit for any portion of the buoy.

Mastercrafter

I don't remember, but am curious how this was actually scored in the tournament.

lpskier

@Than_Bogan @Gloersen Did he displace the buoy with “the ski?”

MDB1056

This was I believe in the runoff at Worlds. As I recall it was scored at 1/2 which got him into the finals. Best part of that show was watching the four in the runoff come off the dock cold at 39, and then Dane running 41.

Bruce_Butterfield

@lpskier IMO he “significantly displaced” the buoy with the ski. No credit for that buoy. I may have called it differently in real time. Definitely a tough call.

MISkier

@MDB1056

I think you mean "Dane running 41". But, you are right. "Zane" (presumably Schwenk) running 41 would have been something to see as well.

MDB1056

@MISkier - ooops. Yep definitely fat fingered that one. Wow….Great case for reading carefully before posting 😂. Will get that corrected - thanks

RichardDoane

excessive slow motion should not be used to score balls. bunch of Monday morning quarter-backs will chime in. real time would've scored a half, but as I remember @MarkTimm is right about the body slide and regaining position

Drago

Zero. If no slow motion: zero.
It would be better if we didn't have vague words in our rule book like "significantly displaced"

ForrestGump

Wow that is a tough one. In real time I'd have scored it a zero I think. Because I for sure thought the ski went in front of the buoy at first. It's only after watching it in slow that I see the red smear by the front binding. But the buoy isn't moving inside, it's going down. So I'd have still called it a zero.

Gloersen

@lpskier Assuming that…. "Riding over shall be defined as hitting a turn buoy with the ski so as to move it significantly from its position or temporarily sink it… “position” occupies three dimensions; not just the X & Y axes, but the Z-axis as well; the ski pushes the buoy below the 8cm minimum height threshold.

Horton

This is an extremely interesting in my mind. I think tip of the ski never gets outside the ball line but JTs feet seem to have been outside the ball line.

USAWS rule 10.03
A. Skier Turn Buoys. It is a miss to ride inside a turn buoy or to ride over, straddle, or jump over a turn buoy. But there is no penalty for grazing a turn buoy with the ski or part of the body. Riding over shall be defined as hitting a turn buoy with the ski so as to move it significantly from its position or temporarily sink it. Hitting a turn buoy less severely shall be considered as grazing.

IWSF Rule 8.08a
Skier Turn Buoys. It is a miss to ride inside a turn buoy, or to ride over, straddle, or jump a turn buoy. There is no penalty for grazing a turn buoy with the ski or part of the body. Riding over shall be defined as hitting a turn buoy with the ski so as to move it significantly from its position or temporarily sink it. Hitting a turn buoy less severely shall be considered as grazing

Horton

I think by the letter of the rules the score is zero ( for that ball). On the other hand I am not sure this is the sprit of the rule. I do not see it in the rules but I always thought the skiers front ankle or foot outside the ball was the deciding factor.

Drago

@Horton 👏 yet another language problem. We shouldn't have to guess "the spirit of the rule". I always thought the ski and the foot/feet should go outside the buoy, as they do in alpine ski racing.

Than_Bogan

I interpret the rule in the same skier-friendly way that @Horton describes as the "spirit," but it seems obvious that some improvement of the rule is possible, given that other reasonable people interpret it differently.

That said, sometimes trying to get a rule to be extremely precise can backfire. We all used to know when a football player caught the ball except in some rare situations. In an effort to clarify the correct call in those rare, ultra-difficult cases, they ended up in a place where only a hard-core rules expert has any idea what is a catch and what isn't -- even for ordinary situations!

There may be cases where saying "use your judgment and err toward the skier if you're confused" is actually as far as we should go.

6balls

@drago most of the ski did! Just razzin you,man--understand what you are saying. I'm no record judge, I give it to him--half and if he stood that up and got to the wake before the next set like some seem to say he did (if the video went longer), give him the full buoy. Incredible skiing by a world-class skier.

Horton

I think it's worth contemplating that for a skier not at 39 or 41 or 43 off it is unlikely for the path of the tip of the ski to be inside the ball line and for the skier's front foot to be outside of the ball line. I think this is a possibility that only occurs at the very highest levels of the sport.

lpskier

@Horton AWSA Rule 10.12(D) provides that it is the front foot that determines whether a 1/4 or 1/2 buoy is awarded. There is (to my knowledge) no comparable IWWF rule.

Displacement of the buoy with your bindings, the handle, or any body part is permitted. It is significant displacement with the ski that is prohibited.

To me, the call is either 1/2 or zero, depending on whether the ball was a) significantly displaced b) by the ski. It is hard the answer either question definitively. AWSA Rule 1.15 states that when a call is too close, the benefit of the doubt goes to the skier. Again, there is no comparable IWWF rule, and the video is undoubtedly from an L/R tournament with the IWWF rules in force. Regardless, I think the call at best (or worst, however you want to look at it) is too close to call and the skier gets a half. I called a half based on the binding displacing the buoy, which is allowed. I think either call gets you to what i see as the right result.

What was the live call? And what was the call after video review?

lpskier

@Horton I agree with your last comment. That’s why judging is more than counting to six, and you really need to spend a lot of time watching high level slalom live from a tower and boat to be competent to judge Open/Masters level skiers.

ALPJr

To my eyes it’s clear that the tip end of the ski, ~6 inches or so back from the tip, goes directly over the buoy, pushing it under the ski and water before the buoy reappears near the front boot. Zero at an elite competition.