Public lake course dropping

So is there anyone out there that has gone through the process of dropping a course on a public lake( not a portable course) ?

My friends tell me to just do it, drop it. I grew up with stories of having courses and jumps on The lake. Why not now? If access to our sport is the problem, isn’t putting a public course in worth the BS it might entail? There are far more dangerous things going on on The lake than is skiing a course.
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Comments

  • JmoskiJmoski Posts: 465 Crazy Baller
    I didn’t install the course on our public lake but now help maintain it.

    You need to see if your state has regulations about it. In Maine you don’t need a permit, New Hampshire you do and friends of mine could only get a permit for a temporary course that has to be removed when not in the day/time slots issued, they sink it to comply…
    Keukaskier
  • PatMPatM Posts: 868 Crazy Baller
    I can still remember when I went about putting the course in my lake. It was a hassle for sure. Mainly a couple neighbors that were against it. Well 30 years later it is still there. Totally worth the hassle.
    Keukaskier
  • MISkierMISkier Posts: 3,439 Mega Baller
    If you can install a course without a permit or you have a permit to do so, then do it. Public lakes that allow courses should always have one, in my opinion. I think your biggest effort will be in setting anchors for the buoys. I doubt much will happen to them afterward and your maintenance will be to replace buoys and buoy lines and maybe even an occasional sub buoy. Heck, we do all of that on a private, purpose-built ski lake now. Having a good relationship with the other residents on the lake will be key to how much maintenance you have to do in the future. The opportunity to ski the course regularly, conveniently, and affordably will be well worth it.
    The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears.
    jjackkrashPatMKeukaskier
  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 5,104 Mega Baller
    I am taking diving courses in hopes I may eventually get a permit then I am going to put my portable in fine tune where it sits and then spend a summer setting anchors under it.

    Figured a winter in the pool isnt a bad hobby.
    MISkierKeukaskier
  • marknmarkn Posts: 513 Mega Baller
    I went through the permitting process for a course in both Indiana and Florida. The process for Florida was actually more difficult and time consuming. Despite the time and effort involved, with respect to a course, think is is better to "ask for permission" and obtain a permit that complies with your local laws than to "apologize" after just putting one in. Just FYI, if it is an Army Corps lake, they own the lake bed and are not fond of 22 anchors on their property (at least in Indiana) hence we had to use an accu-float with only 2 anchors. Good luck.
    MISkierMDB1056Keukaskier
  • RAWSkiRAWSki Posts: 971 Mega Baller
    Definitely research and go for it We feel so lucky to have a course on our public lake Had to go thru re-permitting a couple years ago and while something of a hassle it wasnt a problem and we didnt find any objections
    MISkierKeukaskierDaveD
  • MastercrafterMastercrafter Posts: 354 Crazy Baller
    edited February 6
    I bought an insta-slalom for our public lake, and after last year, basically swore that I’m done with with. The course itself works great and is easy to use, but other boats kept destroying it. Among countless missing buoys and torn up buoy lines, twice someone got wrapped up enough in the course to drag the center of it about 50’ sideways. We have drunk toonies all the time trying to swerve through the boat guides.

    The hassle of sinking it for the weekend and setting it up for the weekdays gets old pretty quick. An Accufloat or similar would be easier, but we don’t have the depth required.

    I know there are semi-public / public lakes around here with courses that seem to have better luck, but apparently our lake isn’t fit for a course. Kind of a case-by-case basis.
    KeukaskierMDB10562Valve
  • VONMANVONMAN Posts: 329 Crazy Baller
    @Mastercrafter Do you live on Walled Lake?
    Ernie Schlager

    A Good One Ball Gives You Six
  • MastercrafterMastercrafter Posts: 354 Crazy Baller
    @VONMAN yup, Mike W here. The course is set basically on top of your old course.
  • VONMANVONMAN Posts: 329 Crazy Baller
    @Mastercrafter That's what I thought. To shallow and weedy for a sinkable course. We used to remove all the balls and markers (4) at 12 noon on Saturday and it couldn't go back up till 9am Monday. But the Sheriff patrol would let us put it up 6am on Sunday and ski till noon and then we would remove all the balls and markers.
    Woke up one morning during the week to 22 balls cut from the lines and floating all over the lake. Other morning seeing one of the SKI COURSE markers cut in two!? Must have been a pontoon boat in the middle of the night. Never understood the DNR wanting those in the lake.
    The day my brother Rick and I put the course in a boat cut the mainline, darn thing is like a magnet for crazy stuff. But the fun we Had! I have some old video on U-Tube. Just type in my name to view: Ernie Schlager
    Ernie Schlager

    A Good One Ball Gives You Six
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 3,783 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    In NY you will need one or two permits, depending on who owns the lake bottom where you will place your anchors. It may be easier if the state owns the lake bottom as you will then have only one bottom owner to deal with. Call your Regional DEC HQ and ask to speak with someone in Lands and Forest and they should be able to tell you if the state owns the lake bottom of your lake.

    If the State owns the lake bottom, you will need a “temporary use of State land” permit for your anchors and a floating object permit for your buoys. They may require that you provide them with an insurance policy if you need the temporary use permit but won’t if you need only the floating object permit.

    You will need the written consent of all neighboring landowners within a 1/4 (?) mile of the course and the permission of all bottom owners where your anchors will rest if not the State. You still need the floating object permit.

    If you need insurance, call Wayne at (518) 891-2020 at Sportsinsurance.com

    If you need help with the process, let me know. If you want to ski this summer, get going now.

    I submitted a permit application for a jump on Lake Placid In February 2014. My application is still pending…

    By the way, if you want to have a tournament on your public lake course, you will need a DEC regatta permit.

    Good luck. A permit is doable but you’ll need to make a real effort.
    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
    Keukaskier
  • jjackkrashjjackkrash Posts: 1,113 Mega Baller
    edited February 6
    A thick moat of lily pads to keep out the wallies doesn't hurt. Location and traffic patterns are keys to success.
  • marknmarkn Posts: 513 Mega Baller
    Agreed it can be a hassle with course maintenance. Have had our courses for 20 years on my lake. Have found using 50 lb. Zip ties to hold buoy to the line works exceedingly well in preventing course damage. The buoy tears away with no PVC damage...more buoys, but that saves course repairs. Yes, bubba on a jet ski or some idiot wake board boat runs over the course, but keeping the buoy lines 6 feet long helps as well.
    Keukaskier
  • dave2balldave2ball Posts: 1,030 Crazy Baller
    I too have gone through the permit process here in Fla. it is a pain. The biggest issue with putting in a permanent course is the survey. The person surveying the course needs a shoreline to shot the course in a floating dock will not work.
    I would start with a floater course ie insta slalom and see how it goes over. The slowly place anchors on the bottom. The portable course will serve as a templet.
    Check with your state and or county EPD and you should get some answers.
    KeukaskierMDB1056
  • PatMPatM Posts: 868 Crazy Baller
    I agree with the statements on good relations with the neighbors and a level head when dealing with the unfriendly ones. While we have damage to the course from time to time (mainly over a busy weekend) we have been lucky. I think the biggest advantage we have had is that PWCs are not allowed on my lake.
    Keukaskier
  • MDB1056MDB1056 Posts: 999 Crazy Baller
    No matter where you are it just makes sense to get permission . Strongly urge anyone not to just dump one in and say what the heck . Depending on the state and local scenes a number of factors come into play. You could also find yourself on the wrong end of significant civil litigation if someone was injured from the course you just dumped in , especially if it turns out there were strict requirements for such a thing. The lake I live on is public access but owned by the city, which has complete authority over such things. I do the portable course thing always which has never been a problem.
    Keukaskier
  • BrennanKMNBrennanKMN Posts: 585 Crazy Baller
    I run a permanent non-submersible course on public water. It is on a lake with no houses, otherwise I am sure it would be much more difficult to get the permit. I simply email the county every 2 years and get it renewed. The other course I used to be involved with was shut down after the land was developed and houses were built on the shoreline of the course.

    There is a maintenance aspect, but if you have several parties using it that generally helps. I just ask people to keep a few spare balls, zip-ties and 5 foot ball ropes in their boats to replace parts as needed. Everything else I handle. Sink it in the fall and float it in the spring.
    lpskierKevin89MCm_pags
  • marknmarkn Posts: 513 Mega Baller
    If accufloat is still available, that is the course I would suggest. The course cable is in sections...buoy to buoy. If one section is damaged, only need to replace that one section rather than the entire main line. We did have an accu- sink course for several years on a public course. Tied the fill line to a cypress tree and used scuba tanks to fill it. Worked great for several years with very little maintenance. Hope it all works out for you.
    skierjpKeukaskier
  • RAWSkiRAWSki Posts: 971 Mega Baller
    Wally made improvements to the accufloat design, color coded modular sections and stainless plate connections really improved strength and durability. We have had our Wally version in for over 10 years maintance isnt bad and a few lost buoys over a holiday weekend is a small price to pay Definitely pontooners at night or just dropping anchor near the mainline is my biggest fear Most boaters just go around the course some cut thru --- a lot of PWCs will run the buoys and i have no problem with that. I have a couple ski buddies that used to get so worked up when they would see jet skis in "their course" but i have never seen a PWC do any real damage.... maybe knock a buoy off but thats it
    skierjp
  • skierjpskierjp Posts: 1,204 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    I agree with Mark. Accufloat is the best and the most durable. I’m pretty sure Accufloat is still available. Mike Suyderhound did have some serious health issues last year. You can sink or float a Accufloat in about 15 minutes. There are some tricks that go with that once you gain experience.
  • MDB1056MDB1056 Posts: 999 Crazy Baller
    edited February 6
    My first course was an Accufloat, with coated stainless line. In my experience accufloat is great for a permanent or semi perm course, but is terrible for a portable course. It’s very heavy duty, and a bear to work with compared to others such as EZ Slalom etc. Accufloat uses all schedule 40 pvc which is 2x as heavy as other portables use, also all the sections collapse into one, which sounds nice but that makes it very heavy to work with as you’re moving the entire length of the guide and arm all at once. Accufloat also uses stainless clips and eyebolts for connecting sections and guides, also heavy duty but an additional hassle factor vs pop up buttons, All this makes it super steady and strong once in but comparatively it’s a major PITA to get in and out. Stainless mainline is also much heavier and harder to reel in vs poly. Would love to see someone put in or remove an accufloat in 15 mins . I sold mine to a guy in Alabama that wanted the most heavy duty design possible for a semi permanent course, which is perfect for Accufloat . Once in its rock solid - but not at all user friendly to get in and out.
    Keukaskier
  • dave2balldave2ball Posts: 1,030 Crazy Baller
    @Keukaskier take the advice of Marin and skierjp. I know them personally and I agree that the more heavy duty the course is the better. The arms won’t bow the mainline won’t stretch. It boils down to you get what you pay for. I know accufloat is an awesome and very accurate and reliable course.
    Keukaskier
  • swbcaswbca Posts: 707 Crazy Baller
    In the Minneapolis 7 county area, almost all of the cities have permit requirements. If you install without a permit, and someone on the lake complains, you could end up with a visit from the police if you don't get a permit or remove the course. Since the DNR has top level authority over lake usage, I am not sure if the cities really have the authority to enforce their own permit requirements.

    The DNR has top level juridiction and they don't require a permit for a course that is only UP during daylight hours. They don't require permission from the neighbor either. Not sure the cities can really enforce their rules . . but in practice they do enforce them.
    Home of the world's first submersible slalom course
    Keukaskier
  • 503Kento503Kento Posts: 163 Baller
    @MDB1056 we used to have an accufloat on public water. Yea, you can’t install it in 15 minutes but you can refloat it. We had clip on buoys and would remove them at the end of skiing and let the course drop to the bottom. When time to ski we either had a line from the bank to the course mainline or used a grappling hook to snag it pull it up and start clipping buoys on.
    Get high, get fast, and do some good work
    skierjp
  • thagerthager Posts: 5,549 Mega Baller
    @swbca In Boonieville, MN, we get our course permits from the county sheriff department not the DnR.
    Stir vigorously then leave!
    m_pags
  • swbcaswbca Posts: 707 Crazy Baller
    edited February 7
    @thager Thanks, I just clarified your point in my post above. The Minnesota DNR delegates permitting to counties . . but many counties stick with the DNR's no permit rule for daytime slalom courses. Crow Wing county also interprets that to mean no permit for a submersible course as long as its not a surface obstruction at night. I don't know what legal standing the cities have, but many put difficult requirements on permits.
    Home of the world's first submersible slalom course
  • skierjpskierjp Posts: 1,204 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @MDB1056 sorry I need to be more clear. I didn’t say remove in 15 minutes. I said sink or float in 15 minutes. Why would you remove it if you ski that area regularly? All those EZ install courses leave a lot to be desired when it comes to accuracy.
  • skierjpskierjp Posts: 1,204 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @BraceMaker LOL, I’m with you. I live 20 minutes from USA Waterski and when I had troubles with a already approved permit for a course and a irritated neighbor that involved the Sheriff I couldn’t even get a response back from them and I know most of them that work their. I fought it myself and won. Thank goodness one of the Deputies used to be a Cypress Gardens skier. I have 3 permits for 4 courses on our lake. One permit is for 2 courses. Oh yeah, plus a jump permit! Thanks to Skip Dunlap for advice when we were getting started.
    MISkiermarknBraceMaker
  • KeukaskierKeukaskier Posts: 32 Baller
    Thank you for all your responses! I agree with getting permission. If I’m going to do this, I want to do it right. Looks like I need to start doing some research on permits. I’m thinking the permits needed are likely the same ones our yacht club acquires to set our racing courses. No resident owns out into the lake, so I think I’ll have to go through the state. NY
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