Setting up new Vapor boot

bojans · March 19

I am trying to setup the new Vapor boot with a Reflex release. I have the new plate from Radar and have put the front hoop at the 10-11 setting (size 11 boot) and the rear release in the 9-11 slot. I cannot get the release to click in and the toe of the boot is barely engaging in the front hoop. Do I need a different hoop or am I interpreting these bolt locations incorrectly?

First picture is of the boot and the front hoop, second is of another plate with the black screws showing where I have the release mechanism bolted.

skialex · March 19

Your front hoop (toe bar), is an older model with wider bases and an option of spacers to change its height. My favorite, I use this too and have some spare for future use.
Yours seem to be missing the spacers…
Either add the spacers, or buy a new taller one or if you can’t find them, use instead 2 M5 ss nuts.
Double check the bolt location too, cause it should fit…
Alex

Gloersen · March 19

@skialex is correct, those height spacers are needed. Even with them the toe fit still appears sketchy re unexpected release (e.g., out the back); offside tail loading finishes with out the back releases are unpleasant having done so with modified shells resulting in being too flexible (bottom cut-out).

A second hoop works well or forming a toe piece cup; e.g. with instamorph plastic (amazon), heat to 160F in water and mold accordingly, counter-sunk ½” stainless sheet metals screws through plate from below to secure (at least for the lateral securing heel cup) work well. In this case the 2nd hoop could be removed, but don’t feel the need to do so (jpegs).

Also, if you do release from both components simultaneously (Reflex release and liner out), the shell will sink (floats if liner stays in). Personally I like the sense of an Achilles brake (stop) strap of sorts, so fashioned one as seen in the jpegs. The Velcro strap is snug around the ankle to secure the added cuff attachment, the stainless stop cables definitely engage the Reflex release mechanism with abrupt dorsiflexion as desired, as well as averting a sinking shell scenario. It reduces ankle flexion ease a tad but overall still has that Vapor binding feel.

So much smoother and predictable than a conventional hardshell imo. Best feeling binding I’ve ridden in a long time (fwiw).

Deanoski · March 21

holy stiff boots batman!

bojans · March 21

@skialex do you mean 1 nut on each side or 2 nuts on each side as the spacer?

Thanks!

skialex · March 22

@bojans 1 nut on each side. I’m sending you a pm…

TimBeier · March 23

Got mine a few days ago and i planned on using it in my reflex system. I noticed quite a bit of rotation of the boot, meaning it seems that the boot is not straight and the toe cap is twisted. I then mounted the boot as it is supposed to, directly to the plate. It seemes the front is about .4 inch twisted from center. So I cut myself a new plate with a waterjet machine with asymmetrical toe cap holes. Maybe it is worth a look on your bindings👀
I think a right/left forward specific plate would have been a better option

RGilmore · March 24

@TimBeier
Take a close look at the very nose of your boot, way down low where it transitions 90-degrees to become the bottom/sole. You should see a small molded-in arrowhead pointing downward - that is the RADAR-determined center-line of the forward end of your boot. No idea how that will affect the rest of your calculations, but that's where RADAR says the center is, so if ya didn't know... now ya know.

MickeyThompson · March 24

@RGilmore the arrow is not on the new Vapor boot.
My friend is trying one and having trouble with getting the boot straight in the Radar supplied reflex style plate.
When in the reflex, the toe is pointing right (right foot forward boot).
When using the regular Radar plate and align screws with the marks on underside of plate the toe points straight. At least a 1/2” difference.
He has skied both plates and straight seems to perform lot better but he would like to use the reflex release.

TimBeier · March 24

Yeah, that‘s the problem I also had. @MickeyThompson

RGilmore · March 24

No alignment arrow? That's disappointing. Sounds like an oversight on the designer's part.
I guess, when I come to that dilemma in a month or two, I'll try to align the sole of one of my previous Vapor boots with the sole of the new one and transfer the mark to create one on the new boot.

TimBeier · March 24

@RGilmore as long as u not plan on using it in a reflex system you will be fine and just need to adjust and angle.
I am quit bummed that the Boot did not fit that great in the reflex, regarding they advertised it as a compatible and many people buying the boot for that reason.
You can stick with it and try if the angle doesn’t affect you or you make a new plate with asymmetrical Toe hoop holes🤷🏻‍♂️

Gloersen · March 29

@TimBeir – good feedback on the offset toe. I missed that on initial setup, despite the binding feeling great, may explain the delayed move to the left, harsh finish onside (back to LFF). Reasonably quick remedy moving the toebar mounting holes and a re-molded toe cap.
This binding really inspires renewed confidence on the water.
@Deanoski – the shell design is kinda genius allowing smooth “ball-joint” flexibility of the talocalcaneonavicular joint. Despite all the crap I added, the binding still behaves efficiently.

Horton · March 29

I think you guy are misunderstanding about the alignment of the boot. It looks like the vapor boot is angled out but if you ignore the asymmetrical shape of the toe cap and follow the center line of the boot is is straight.

Gloersen · March 29

@Horton John, you could be right, but mounting the binding on its inherent plate with the base screws centered with the slot etch marks (with a centerline drawn on top of the plate) enables drawing a centerline on the boot's center, both for toe and heel. When mounting on the standard Reflex setup the centerline of the toe is about 0.4" off center (as @TimBeier described) to the left (LFF). My 2nd plate mod has the toe bar moved 0.375" to the right. It felt great skiing today. Need video.

IMO most should initially use this binding on the fixed plate and get it setup rotationally where it skis great. It'll release fine in most instances if used as designed. If using a Reflex setup still is preferred, mark the heel and toe at centerline on the fixed plate setup that works best for the skier, then carefully evaluate how it aligns once clamped in the Reflex setup; modification may be needed. It may not release from the Reflex setup as readily as expected due to the bungeed upper cuff. In conclusion, imo, using this boot in a Reflex release requires some experience, insight, and being careful (a general statement applicable to any release type setup).

Wish · March 30

Sorry, quick thread steal. Can anyone ID the model radar boots? They are 2016. Are there laces on lower foot?? They are XXL. Would that work for a size 11 foot? Asking for a neighbor.

RAWSki · March 31

Those look like a version of Radar's Pulse bindings, kind of their entry level boot.

S1Pitts · March 31

I bought two of those for my son and the boxes were labeled as model Prime. They are from 2017 and are XL. They feel a bit big on my size 12 foot but do cinch down a lot with the bungee cords making them skiable.

Back on topic.....does anyone know what the thread pitch/dia size is on the 5 mounting screws to attach the regular plate to the boot?

skialex · March 31

@S1Pitts I would say 3/8” and it’s a 8-32 like most screws on a ski.

ShaunT · April 1

Interesting to see all what others are doing with this boot. I just set this up also with the new Radar carbon plate and all new 840 release and new toe loop. Fits together nicely. I'm yet to ride it. Boot is very well built and comfy. I pulled the soft lining of the underside of the plate away cause I like a direct fit.

Couple of things to point out that I notice with mine that others might be able to talk to:

- Boot sole is flat, well flat around the edges edges and along side the side of the toes but down the centerline it is concave and the screws touch the plate not the boot. So flat yes, but note entirely.

- I do have about a 1.5mm gap from the boot to the toe loop. Not sure if I should be concerned about this but I don't want/like any movement.

- Can anyone whos already been using the boot speak to the longevity/robustness of the plastics used when using the release system? Just from setting it up it seems to impact on the plastics where as my Syndicate hardshell in the rear got scuffed up by the release but no where near gouged.
-

Cheers

Gloersen · April 1

@ShaunT - the boot's sole should be completely flat without any protruding screws. Are the 5 plate mounting screws in the inserts? Attach a pic of the sole.

The Achilles strap looks like a mod. Assuming this shell is not new given the indent marks.

The upper cuff needs to have the rear retention screw removed such that the back end of the cuff can articulate up far enough for the Silvretta Reflex clasp to attach to the shell's ledge unobstructed. Otherwise it'll be too tight from heel to toe in the Reflex system if using the appropriate holes for shell size, and as as only the outer prongs of the clasp are clamping the shell ledge, causing those indents.

That toe bar gap may depend somewhat on what vintage toe-bar used. Faced a similar issue; one can fashion a plastic toe-cap creating a snug fit with wide dispersion of the contact surface area (instamorp plastic as previously mention in this thread). Thus no indentations of the boot's toe will occur, the boot's position will remain the same over extended use, and the Reflex release tension will not unknowingly decrease (if the boot were to slowly migrate forward from indentation).

I personally would not ski the setup you displayed.

TimBeier · April 1

@ShaunT Ur boot is not flat on the plate because of the screws heads sticking out. I had the same issue. U will need to use a 90 degree tapping drill to get the screws sit deeper in to the boot

TimBeier · April 1

* 90 degree countersunk drill

ShaunT · April 1

@gloresen is a brand new boot never used.

The binding mount screws aren’t in. It’s the 7 hex screws (along the edges abs rear). I managed to find my hex set and got them down flush so all good there. It actually pulled the base off the boot together flatter which is good.

Yep Achilles strap a mod I’m working on.

“The upper cuff needs to have the rear retention screw removed such that the back end of the cuff can articulate up far enough for the Silvretta Reflex clasp to attach to the shell's ledge unobstructed”

I tried this and yes it’s a better connection for sure but actually I think it’s worse overall and I’m not sure, unless someone can show me from Radar, that the rear screw should be out in a release setup. When out the articulation of the cuff actually moves the release back and forth which is not good.

Looking at Joel Polands setup as far as I can see back screw is in. Jason McClintock: back screw is def in.

Articulation off the cuff in my mind would actually hinder the release as the cuff being able to move so far forward won’t apply enough pressure on the release early enough. Were you are compensating for that is with strap around the top of the boot which holds it all together tighter and promotes less cuff articulation.

Toe loop is brand new so unsure of vintage in that sense but behind all new current hardware interesting there is a gap.

ShaunT · April 1

@TimBeier yep spot on all fixed now.

Gloersen · April 1

@TimBeir good info on the torx screws needing to be made flush in some instances.
@ShaunT – can only relate to my experience, but with the cuff all the way back (in a locked position), can’t even clamp the Reflex down due to excessive force required; size 10 shell on standard Reflex G-10 plate, toebar (prior to mod) and release mounted at #10 holes and release hinge in rear hole of aluminum mounting block. Maybe a tad different tolerances with Radar plate?
Not all toebars are the same apparently. Mine (that being used) is similar to yours (which didn't appear suitable for skiing), but kept using it after molding the plastic toe cap since it covered the entire bar permitting it to conform to the boot better and retain the boot toe securely.
This older toebar (with spacers) pic attached fits fine and keeps the toe of the boot quite secure (suitable for skiing imo), but I feel more “secure” with the added connection using the molded plastic toecap (unaesthetics aside).
Interesting Achilles strap concept. How did you attach it the upper part of the cuff being that’s its silicone rubber (always a better mousetrap)?

ShaunT · April 1

“ but with the cuff all the way back (in a locked position), can’t even clamp the Reflex down due to excessive force required”

That’s interesting. Mine is tight but I wouldn’t call it excessive force so again interesting to see how these setups differ. The plate hole positioning for the release is probably playing a part there.