New Ski & Setup Support

adamhcaldwell

How much value do skiers put into setup support versus just purchasing of a new ski?

jimski

💯 % if the dealer or team can’t help me set up the ski for my needs, I’m not interested in it.

skialex

I really believe in setup support and it is something that is needed and a lot of skiers have no or very little access.

Mastercrafter

Important. I know you guys offer a lot of it which is great.

Some of the Syndicate team has offered me advice with mine. I need to ski more consistently before taking them up on the generous offer.

It’s nice to see Cole and Brooks from Radar on here too with knowledge and numbers.

I can think of a few brands they are pretty silent and good or not, the lack of “people skills” turns me off to them.

adamhcaldwell

I know I've seen people lose 6-12 buoys on a 'new ski' trying to run 'stock' numbers.....and continue with it for years. Personally I am terrified of that happening to one of our customers and we work hard to prevent that.

The hardest part seems to be that people HATE to send video if they think they dont 'look good'...but thats exactly what we need to see to be able to get them dialed in!

dchristman

Jeeze now I feel cheated! +5 wasn't really enough. I will send you a video this year for the other 13 I think I deserve . Seriously, you guys have already been such a big value-added here and the ski works so well I was going to just send you money after I get through the next pass.

Drago

@Mastercrafter
"I need to ski more consistently before taking them up on the generous offer. "
It's quite the opposite, as @adamhcaldwell said above.
Denali and Syndicate have great support. D3 has area reps and TW.
If you bought a Porsche and you couldn't reach the pedals, would you not ask for some factory support?

Mastercrafter

@Drago fair, and understood. I’m not necessarily seeking perfecting but I’ll turn 1 different than 3 different than 5.. trying to at least make a pass look like the same skier, ha.

One of my goals is to use a lot of video this year, so I’ll throw some footage out to the masses regardless of consistency, once we start skiing.

adamhcaldwell

Inconsistent skiing can come directly from poor setup. That’s why it’s important not to wait to ask for help. You would be amazed what an experienced eye can see. Couple tweaks can go a long way to improving consistency

LK_skier

I never use to see much in changing settings and I always put it down to poor form - BUT I recently got my fin changed and OMG it is so much better. I wouldn't expect my pro shop to help too much but I would expect some way of sending a video or two to help dial it in. But there are a lot of 'part time slalom' or social skiers out there that wouldn't even touch it or know that adjusting things would make a difference.

adamhcaldwell

While many will disagree, in my personal opinion, fin settings are far more important for a novice level skier from 15-32off and slower speeds then any higher level skier.

Rednucleus

@adamhcaldwell Can you further explain why more important? I ski 32/15off on an HO Superlite.

SlalomSteve

Does Radar provide setup support? I certainly don't know enough to figure it out myself, and I expect my next ski to either be a Radar or a Denali.

mbabiash

The reality is skis like radar and D3 work really well at stock numbers.
I found Denali to be very difficult to dial fin in. Both c75 and 85.
Goode’s seem very boot placement sensitive

mike_mapple

I know we attempt to set up every ski that goes out the door to stock settings, and I like to make sure I let customers know they can feel free to email me video or questions anytime, I know some of the other staff forget to set skis, and I will be honest if you catch me on a crazy day I can to. But I do agree with Adam about the ski set up being more important for a novice skier than a pro, IMO if adam comes in to the shop to buy a ski from me, chances are he is going to want to do the fin himself on his tools. just my .02

Dirt

I think skiers would value it more if they experienced it. A lot of skiers just ride a ski and get used to it or set it and forget it.
When I rode the Denali I was amazed at how knowledgeable Caldwell and Cord were. I learned more about ski setup in a few months than I had in the previous 25 years.

ski6jones

Very much. I rode and loved the T2 I bought from Andy. Unfortunately it broke down and I had to work out a warranty replacement with Radar. The new ski didn't work at all with the old settings. Changes on layup I guess. @brooks was helping me and asked for video on the new ski. I don't remember the exact numbers but he had me change length by over 30 thou. End up running my best score ever on that ski. I would have never made an adjustment like that on my own. Setup help can be key.

BlueSki

Concur with @Dirt, I learned a ton from the Adam’s with the C75 and still learning as much with the C85. The support is huge and was why I was willing to buy a cutting edge ski.

aupatking

My lake owner was a 38 Off skier in his prime. He got on a new ski at the end of last season that he hasn’t been able to run -28 on. -28 is automatic for him, but this ski just didn’t ride right for him. He finally got some new fin numbers from the manufacturer and I set it up for him Tuesday and all of a sudden, he was BACK! The difference in proper ski setup is TREMENDOUS!
I can’t tell you how much I appreciate you, @adamhcaldwell and @AdamCord for your setup numbers in the Denali section of this site, both for my C75 and my current C85. I don’t know enough to take a ski out and “make up” my own setup numbers, and I have read the “Fin Whisperer” book. I can tweak a fin, once I get it very close to where I like it, but again, I have to be very close before my limited knowledge helps me. Thanks again for the support you guys put into your skis.

adamhcaldwell

@aupatking - Yeah there's definitely a black art with fins. The "logic" behind tuning fins can change based on the type of fin. For example, what might make sense for an adjustment to a standard 5 hole fin might not work at all on the CG fin, or whisper fin and vice-versa. In short, different fins can require some slightly different movements to achieve a desired outcome. Guys who have a 5hole fin figured out, might feel a bit lost tuning a CG fin as there are some different dynamics at play.

Things get even a little more complex when we start adding in different bindings which input torque against both the ski and the fin from various heights and positions. Higher & stiffer rear bindings really can make things confusing at times if your talking about fin setup with a someone who is more experienced with a stiff front boot & kicker.

Fin setup is not simple, and there is never a "right' move despite how many people think they have all the answers. Even for the most experienced guys in the world there's still a huge amount of trial and error. Make an adjustment in one direction - if its not immediately noticeably better, head the other way.

The other challenge can be tuning a ski for your hardest pass. Sometimes what makes your hardest pass perform better might make your earlier passes feel like a school bus turning. That just means you need to hit the earlier passes a little harder with some more energy and get back to the shorter lines where you were looking for a change - and conversely don't be fooled if your opener feels AMAZING, but then your 3 buoys short at the top end.

Then consider your ZO setting...Fins can be tuned to work better for C*, but not work well with A*. and vice versa.

This sport is confusing, full of complex variables and it takes a solid support team to get things figured out. Never be afraid to ask someone for help. If what your told doesn't "work" for you, just be thankful, keep an open mind, learn what you can from the experiment, and then maybe make an adjustment in the opposite direction of what you tried before to see what happens.

swbca

@adamhcaldwell re matching settings to rope length or other conditions . . I though I had struck gold when a made a significant bevel change at the tournament site before my event. I ran a PB for tournament or practice downwind in significant wind chop. When I got home I couldn't do anything with the ski.

jhughes

To the original question, no, I don't assign a lot of material value to support. In other words I would not make a purchase decision heavily based on support level for a ski.

The past few D3s I've ridden have been fantastic (and increasingly better) with stock numbers, that's just really worked well for me personally. I'm pounding out sets working on fundamentals (that I've denied for years) generally not worrying a ton about the ski while others at my level or below might be futzing around with settings and burning sets on settings that might not be better. FWIW, YMMV. It's a short summer.

And, I'm a tinkerer by nature so it's very tough to resist messing with the ski. But I'm trying to.